Da'Monte Williams news

Status
Not open for further replies.
#26      
Battle89
I am not discounting any of the excellent points above, but am slightly bemused at the concept of embedding social workers with police, given the comments about the incentivization / low pay of the same.

I have multiple social workers and police officers in my extended family. If you think cops are underpaid you should try living on a social worker's wages. The officers make far more, plus get a pension with enough tenure. Now training is another matter entirely, the social workers are generally degreed with years of education in their field, vs. a few weeks or months as noted above.
 
#27      
IlliniKat91
Battle89 said:
I am not discounting any of the excellent points above, but am slightly bemused at the concept of embedding social workers with police, given the comments about the incentivization / low pay of the same.

I have multiple social workers and police officers in my extended family. If you think cops are underpaid you should try living on a social worker's wages. The officers make far more, plus get a pension with enough tenure. Now training is another matter entirely, the social workers are generally degreed with years of education in their field, vs. a few weeks or months as noted above.
Click to expand...
The police department that covers the district I work for has a social work department. They don't go out on all calls, but they do a lot of work with them and for the community.

I'm sure they get paid peanuts still though
 
#29      
BalloonsTheElephant
Grandpa said:
The guy who was shot was attacking with a bat IIRC. If you send in a social worker does that person also get a bat? You have to send police.
Click to expand...
I think the reasoning in having the social worker there is that maybe they can identify an ongoing mental crisis and help support the officers or maybe help deescalate the situation.

These two professions have vastly different toolboxes to accomplish the same task. If the police officer can provide a safe space for the social worker to interact and provide some stability for someone who is unstable that leads to far better outcomes in these situations. Obviously that isn't always the case, but I feel like it's worth a shot.
 
#30      
squeezegame
www.ishn.com

Top 25 most dangerous jobs in the United States

Roofers, power lineman, construction jobs are among the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries and studied by AdvisorSmith.
www.ishn.com www.ishn.com

police officer clocking in at #22... it's less dangerous than you think. and less necessary, but unlike a lot of the opinions on here, i've done plenty of study

“Too Often We Enjoy The Comfort Of Opinion Without The Discomfort Of Thought” — John F. Kennedy
 
#31      
sacraig
Grandpa said:
The guy who was shot was attacking with a bat IIRC. If you send in a social worker does that person also get a bat? You have to send police.
Click to expand...
Old Man What GIF by Amazon Prime Video


I realize this is a serious situation but this still made me chuckle. Sorry if I am a terrible person.
 
#32      
hooraybeer
squeezegame said:
www.ishn.com

Top 25 most dangerous jobs in the United States

Roofers, power lineman, construction jobs are among the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries and studied by AdvisorSmith.
www.ishn.com www.ishn.com

police officer clocking in at #22... it's less dangerous than you think. and less necessary, but unlike a lot of the opinions on here, i've done plenty of study

“Too Often We Enjoy The Comfort Of Opinion Without The Discomfort Of Thought” — John F. Kennedy
Click to expand...
give me your thesis
 
#34      
HereSoIDontGetFined
Battle89 said:
I am not discounting any of the excellent points above, but am slightly bemused at the concept of embedding social workers with police, given the comments about the incentivization / low pay of the same.

I have multiple social workers and police officers in my extended family. If you think cops are underpaid you should try living on a social worker's wages. The officers make far more, plus get a pension with enough tenure. Now training is another matter entirely, the social workers are generally degreed with years of education in their field, vs. a few weeks or months as noted above.
Click to expand...
Social work is hard no matter where it is (school systems, DCFS, halfway houses, etc.), and they should be paid more. Better that than settlements from civil litigations.
 
#35      
the juiceman cometh
squeezegame said:
www.ishn.com

Top 25 most dangerous jobs in the United States

Roofers, power lineman, construction jobs are among the most dangerous jobs in the United States based on data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries and studied by AdvisorSmith.
www.ishn.com www.ishn.com

police officer clocking in at #22... it's less dangerous than you think. and less necessary, but unlike a lot of the opinions on here, i've done plenty of study

“Too Often We Enjoy The Comfort Of Opinion Without The Discomfort Of Thought” — John F. Kennedy
Click to expand...
Yes, there are more dangerous professions than police officer, no doubt.

But the point is that in none of these other jobs (other than apparently mechanics and their supervisors?) is the danger other people. This is key as, in these other jobs, lethal violence is not ever effective in eliminating the threat to the worker. Shooting someone does not prevent a roofer from falling off a roof. Unfortunately, for a police officer facing a legitimate threat of violence from an individual with a gun, the primary method of eliminating the threat to the worker is, well, eliminating the threat. I do think there are many instances where the fear response is unfounded, but I don't know what you can do about that. I'm sure we've all had instances where we got scared about something and it turned out it was an overreaction. I'm not saying it's excusable, what I'm saying is it's inevitable under the current circumstances.

What other countries have done is make other people less dangerous by enacting strict gun control measures, which has allowed police to function in more of the community facing role, rather than the militarized version of policing we see instead. I don't think that's ever going to happen here.
 
#36      
IMPE Legend
I think a lot of people are drastically overestimating how much a social worker would want to go into these situations, or better yet...how much their education provides them the ability to deal with an escalated violent mental health crisis...or even the qualifications or ability to diagnose such a mental health issue in these conditions. Simply put, I think this whole concept of sending a social worker is something that sounds nice to people who don't recognize the actual situation you would be putting them into. The police are there to deescalate the situation and/or stop the threat. If you want to focus on their training that makes sense, but to put a additional person out in the field in these situations is truly a terrible idea.

The underlying problem, which I think someone mentioned, is the funding of mental health institutions and the ability to commit people to them when needed. The laws, particularly here in Illinois, are a joke. If you have a family member who is dangerous and needs help good luck. You aren't going to get it. The lack of mental health institutions has led to increased homelessness and imprisonment of the mentally ill, and an overall dramatic increase in the number of mentally ill people walking the streets. The push to close these came largely, I believe, from the belief that pills could solve the problems(oh, and I guess the belief that even if they did work that the person would take them?) and from the belief that institutionalization was "bad". I would say it needs to make a comeback.
 
#37      
Grandpa
sacraig said:
Old Man What GIF by Amazon Prime Video


I realize this is a serious situation but this still made me chuckle. Sorry if I am a terrible person.
Click to expand...
Maybe we both are, but there is reality to look at in this situation. People were trying to get the guy to quit swinging the bat before the police arrived. On TV the hero would ask nicely and the guy would let the bat slip from his hands and burst into tears, or else walk in and grab the bat without anyone getting hurt. In real life he attacks the cops with the bat.
 
#38      
the juiceman cometh
Grandpa said:
Maybe we both are, but there is reality to look at in this situation. People were trying to get the guy to quit swinging the bat before the police arrived. On TV the hero would ask nicely and the guy would let the bat slip from his hands and burst into tears, or else walk in and grab the bat without anyone getting hurt. In real life he attacks the cops with the bat.
Click to expand...
It's impossible to run the counter-factual, but you can't say with certainty that a social worker with appropriate training would have been useless in diffusing the situation, and I am pretty confident that a social worker would be able to diffuse some percentage of situations that a police officer is not able to diffuse.

But again, I think the mental health aspect gets undue attention. It is an aspect, but really the question is of the level of armament on both sides of the police/civilian equation.

The UK has had just 52 police officers fatally shot since WWII, with the last one being 5 years ago. Meanwhile we had 52 police officers fatally shot just in 2024.

Also, the UK had just two fatal shootings by police in 2024. We had over 1,200 people shot to death by police in 2024.

While the US does appear to have somewhat higher rates of mental illness than the UK, it's not enough to account for that difference.
 
#39      
doowink
the juiceman cometh said:
Yes, there are more dangerous professions than police officer, no doubt.

But the point is that in none of these other jobs (other than apparently mechanics and their supervisors?) is the danger other people. This is key as, in these other jobs, lethal violence is not ever effective in eliminating the threat to the worker. Shooting someone does not prevent a roofer from falling off a roof. Unfortunately, for a police officer facing a legitimate threat of violence from an individual with a gun, the primary method of eliminating the threat to the worker is, well, eliminating the threat. I do think there are many instances where the fear response is unfounded, but I don't know what you can do about that. I'm sure we've all had instances where we got scared about something and it turned out it was an overreaction. I'm not saying it's excusable, what I'm saying is it's inevitable under the current circumstances.

What other countries have done is make other people less dangerous by enacting strict gun control measures, which has allowed police to function in more of the community facing role, rather than the militarized version of policing we see instead. I don't think that's ever going to happen here.
Click to expand...
Not trying to be snarky here...you can enact strict gun control measures, but that doesn't mean the perpetrator won't have a gun or other life threatening weapon or device (I agree it would lessen the likelyhood)...having social workers available I'm sure would help in many situations....but how many social workers would it take to send with every patrol unit in a city like Chicago....there are no easy solutions here....when does personal responsibility (you're ultimately responsible for what you say or do) enter into the equation...glad I'm not in law enforcement where decisions have to be made within a matter of seconds that could effect peoples lives
 
#40      
kmunt09
Worst part for Da'Monte, or anyone else, is you're put in a lose-lose situation.

In a split second, you are trying to decide whether to let the violent threat continue (risking your life, and thus your family's well-being as you're likely to have a spouse/children at home under your care); VERSES eliminating the threat (risking public perception of what you did as an overreaction, or losing your job).

Truly a lose-lose, where even hindsight isn't 20/20. I'm sure he will relive this many times.


For the record, I'm not sure any information has come out on whether Da'monte was the officer who shot the firearm, or the officer who shot the taser.
 
#41      
Yost
the juiceman cometh said:
It's impossible to run the counter-factual, but you can't say with certainty that a social worker with appropriate training would have been useless in diffusing the situation, and I am pretty confident that a social worker would be able to diffuse some percentage of situations that a police officer is not able to diffuse.

But again, I think the mental health aspect gets undue attention. It is an aspect, but really the question is of the level of armament on both sides of the police/civilian equation.

The UK has had just 52 police officers fatally shot since WWII, with the last one being 5 years ago. Meanwhile we had 52 police officers fatally shot just in 2024.

Also, the UK had just two fatal shootings by police in 2024. We had over 1,200 people shot to death by police in 2024.

While the US does appear to have somewhat higher rates of mental illness than the UK, it's not enough to account for that difference.
Click to expand...
There are actually programs throughout the country to have trained mental health professionals respond with police on calls where a person may be having a mental health crisis. https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/community-services-board/services/co-responder-program. In the areas where they've deployed these co-responder programs, they've typically seen a huge reduction in negative outcomes.

I don't know that I would say mental health gets undue attention, so much as that we don't pay attention to the access to weapons issue.
 
#42      
HereSoIDontGetFined
IMPE Legend said:
I think a lot of people are drastically overestimating how much a social worker would want to go into these situations, or better yet...how much their education provides them the ability to deal with an escalated violent mental health crisis...or even the qualifications or ability to diagnose such a mental health issue in these conditions. Simply put, I think this whole concept of sending a social worker is something that sounds nice to people who don't recognize the actual situation you would be putting them into. The police are there to deescalate the situation and/or stop the threat. If you want to focus on their training that makes sense, but to put a additional person out in the field in these situations is truly a terrible idea.

The underlying problem, which I think someone mentioned, is the funding of mental health institutions and the ability to commit people to them when needed. The laws, particularly here in Illinois, are a joke. If you have a family member who is dangerous and needs help good luck. You aren't going to get it. The lack of mental health institutions has led to increased homelessness and imprisonment of the mentally ill, and an overall dramatic increase in the number of mentally ill people walking the streets. The push to close these came largely, I believe, from the belief that pills could solve the problems(oh, and I guess the belief that even if they did work that the person would take them?) and from the belief that institutionalization was "bad". I would say it needs to make a comeback.
Click to expand...
And yet, it actually does happen. After all, it's primarily what social workers do. They go into bad homes, drug-filled homes in somes cases, and try to get people help. Yes, it can be dangerous, but it can also be very rewarding to see a person or people come out of a bad situation and back into society. I hear stories all the time about the kids with IEPs at my wife's school whose parents are largely unhelpful or uninvolved with their child's education. It is often the social worker's job to talk to these kids and to their parents and nudge them along toward maximizing their education. It's a hard conversation when some parents basically say, "Stop calling me."

We had a situation where my company bought a building that was going to be its new headquarters in the area. We discovered someone living on the property; not in the building, but in wooded area between the building and the containment pond behind the garbage shed. There were tents and pots and pans and everything. We ended up filing a police report. The police who talked to the guy discovered he was recently divorced and evicted from his home, was a shift manager for the local Toys 'R' Us, and had camped out there until he could pull himself together. We obviously didn't want a homeless guy living on the property as we were moving our staff over to the new location as we wanted people to feel safe. Police ended up getting a social worker involved to deal with the situation as the other option was charging him with trespassing or other such things.

Don't know whatever happened to the guy, but it was a better outcome because police had the option to defer to someone with more expertise in the area.
 
#43      
the juiceman cometh
doowink said:
Not trying to be snarky here...you can enact strict gun control measures, but that doesn't mean the perpetrator won't have a gun or other life threatening weapon or device (I agree it would lessen the likelyhood)...having social workers available I'm sure would help in many situations....but how many social workers would it take to send with every patrol unit in a city like Chicago....there are no easy solutions here....when does personal responsibility (you're ultimately responsible for what you say or do) enter into the equation...glad I'm not in law enforcement where decisions have to be made within a matter of seconds that could effect peoples lives
Click to expand...
As far as I am aware, the experience of every country that has enacted gun control says otherwise. Of course you can't eliminate 100% of all risk, but other countries have eliminated risk to such an extent that many police aren't even issued guns. That's unthinkable in the US. Police officers don't typically carry guns in the UK, yet they have a very low instance of police officer fatalities (and when they happen it's usually stuff like auto accidents).

At the end of the day the gun control question is one of priorities. If you are against it, I am not saying you are wrong. But there is a price for that choice, and that price is gun deaths. Lots of them. Maybe that is a price we as a society are willing to pay, and if it is, then we can make that choice. If you prioritize the freedom to own guns over increased safety of individuals from gun violence, then that choice makes sense. What I don't like is when people refuse to admit that this is a choice with consequences.
 
#44      
the juiceman cometh
Yost said:
There are actually programs throughout the country to have trained mental health professionals respond with police on calls where a person may be having a mental health crisis. https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/community-services-board/services/co-responder-program. In the areas where they've deployed these co-responder programs, they've typically seen a huge reduction in negative outcomes.

I don't know that I would say mental health gets undue attention, so much as that we don't pay attention to the access to weapons issue.
Click to expand...
Poor phrasing on my part. Mental health of course requires more attention. What I meant to comment on was how it often serves as a convenient framing of shooting incidents for those that want to deflect from other root causes, even in many instances where mental health really is not a contributing factor.
 
#45      
Illini 993
I think you might be underestimating how often social workers are put into dangerous situations, and their ability to navigate them. In a group home, they have to be aware that some of these teens will hit them with anything available, all eating utensils have to be locked away, etc. Knocking on a door where the parents inside have a very low opinion of the worker and the system, there is no way to know the reaction you might receive. Much of the curriculum is designed to deal with working with people who do not want you there. I think many social workers would avail themselves of this type of job, especially if the pay was better than most in the field. A diagnosis is not needed to try to deescalate a situation, there are specific strategies explicitly for that. I do, heartily agree with the second paragraph of your post. The government basically shut down almost all of the institutions designed to house and handle people with severe mental problems. They were dumped onto the street, exacerbating homelessness and crime from those who no longer have a place to survive. (My degree is in social work.)
 
#46      
IlliniKat91
the juiceman cometh said:
It's impossible to run the counter-factual, but you can't say with certainty that a social worker with appropriate training would have been useless in diffusing the situation, and I am pretty confident that a social worker would be able to diffuse some percentage of situations that a police officer is not able to diffuse.

But again, I think the mental health aspect gets undue attention. It is an aspect, but really the question is of the level of armament on both sides of the police/civilian equation.

The UK has had just 52 police officers fatally shot since WWII, with the last one being 5 years ago. Meanwhile we had 52 police officers fatally shot just in 2024.

Also, the UK had just two fatal shootings by police in 2024. We had over 1,200 people shot to death by police in 2024.

While the US does appear to have somewhat higher rates of mental illness than the UK, it's not enough to account for that difference.
Click to expand...
My first thought is to wonder whether the NHS covers mental health care. If it does, I would say that having fewer barriers to mental health care is the obvious difference there in terms of the rate of mental illness.
 
#47      
Chad Fleck
I'm going to take a step up a level higher for a moment.

What causes the mental health issues?

I'm currently eating lunch while my teenage daughters care for a 5 month old boy we are in the process of adopting who happens to be from Peoria. He comes from a situation where his father is unknown and his older siblings would all be half siblings as they all have different fathers, all of which are in and out of prison or absent completely. We have worked with a few situations helping out with similar cases and it seems to be a common inner-city experience.

I believe a high percentage of mental health situations are caught, not chemical issues. Even a number of the chemical problems are because of exposure to bad situations.

To my sensibilities, people need a proper moral compass. I'd suggest Biblical Christianity, personally. Recognize that the family unit is good. Children need a father and a mother who love each other, raising them with intentionality towards a good moral compass as well.

This eliminates a lot of the mental health situations we seem to be increasingly running into, in my opinion.

I've got my own little test case that I'll be working with for the next couple of decades. (Not that this is the reason why we've adopted or anything).

Again, I don't believe that well structured households are foolproof. Nor do I think 100% of mental health issues are environmental. But I do think way more of them are caught because of bad moral situations due to a lack of proper moral compasses.
 
#48      
IlliniKat91
Chad Fleck said:
I'm going to take a step up a level higher for a moment.

What causes the mental health issues?

I'm currently eating lunch while my teenage daughters care for a 5 month old boy we are in the process of adopting who happens to be from Peoria. He comes from a situation where his father is unknown and his older siblings would all be half siblings as they all have different fathers, all of which are in and out of prison or absent completely. We have worked with a few situations helping out with similar cases and it seems to be a common inner-city experience.

I believe a high percentage of mental health situations are caught, not chemical issues. Even a number of the chemical problems are because of exposure to bad situations.

To my sensibilities, people need a proper moral compass. I'd suggest Biblical Christianity, personally. Recognize that the family unit is good. Children need a father and a mother who love each other, raising them with intentionality towards a good moral compass as well.

This eliminates a lot of the mental health situations we seem to be increasingly running into, in my opinion.

I've got my own little test case that I'll be working with for the next couple of decades. (Not that this is the reason why we've adopted or anything).

Again, I don't believe that well structured households are foolproof. Nor do I think 100% of mental health issues are environmental. But I do think way more of them are caught because of bad moral situations due to a lack of proper moral compasses.
Click to expand...
Counselors and social workers who work with kids/teens refer to these as ACEs - Adverse Childhood Experiences. We all have them to varying degrees, but those of us who have good role models from early on learn how to deal with them appropriately. When kids don't have those role models, that's when professionals (again, usually school counselors and social workers) have to step in and teach the skills most of us get from family/close family friends.

I've worked in Title 1 Schools (mostly lower income, which usually indicates a higher percentage of students struggling to deal with their ACEs, although that rule isn't hard and fast) most of my career, so it's a big part of what I do all day. A lot of stuff is indeed "caught," but some things are genetic (like a propensity to anxiety and depression) and add to the mix, too.
 
#49      
the juiceman cometh
Chad Fleck said:
I'm going to take a step up a level higher for a moment.

What causes the mental health issues?

I'm currently eating lunch while my teenage daughters care for a 5 month old boy we are in the process of adopting who happens to be from Peoria. He comes from a situation where his father is unknown and his older siblings would all be half siblings as they all have different fathers, all of which are in and out of prison or absent completely. We have worked with a few situations helping out with similar cases and it seems to be a common inner-city experience.

I believe a high percentage of mental health situations are caught, not chemical issues. Even a number of the chemical problems are because of exposure to bad situations.

To my sensibilities, people need a proper moral compass. I'd suggest Biblical Christianity, personally. Recognize that the family unit is good. Children need a father and a mother who love each other, raising them with intentionality towards a good moral compass as well.

This eliminates a lot of the mental health situations we seem to be increasingly running into, in my opinion.

I've got my own little test case that I'll be working with for the next couple of decades. (Not that this is the reason why we've adopted or anything).

Again, I don't believe that well structured households are foolproof. Nor do I think 100% of mental health issues are environmental. But I do think way more of them are caught because of bad moral situations due to a lack of proper moral compasses.
Click to expand...
The US has a higher percentage of Christians than the UK, and the UK has a higher percentage of non-religious, so that's definitely not what's driving the difference.
 
#50      
Chad Fleck
the juiceman cometh said:
The US has a higher percentage of Christians than the UK, and the UK has a higher percentage of non-religious, so that's definitely not what's driving the difference.
Click to expand...
As a Christian in the US all my life, I don't see a lot of what I'd consider Christian living. Survey respondents may say so, but from a practical living perspective, it's not a very high percentage. Way more nuance here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back