Designated hitter coming to NL?

#2      

soupy17

soupy17
MI
soupy17
Shane Walsh said:
There seems to be some momentum building for adding the designated hitter to the National League. What say you?

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/...m-increasing-for-establishing-dh-in-nl-011916
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First thought was that the Cubs would know exactly what to do with Kyle Schwarber.

I never particularly liked the DH, I think having the pitchers hit brings an interesting element to the game and puts more on the managers for strategic calls like double switches, when to pull, etc. However, I'm not a big fan of the two leagues having their own rules and suppose I would prefer a unified rule set to what we have now. I just wish it would be AL pitchers hitting instead.
 
#3      

Deleted member 586966

D
Guest
Deleted member 586966
soupy17 said:
First thought was that the Cubs would know exactly what to do with Kyle Schwarber.

I never particularly liked the DH, I think having the pitchers hit brings an interesting element to the game and puts more on the managers for strategic calls like double switches, when to pull, etc. However, I'm not a big fan of the two leagues having their own rules and suppose I would prefer a unified rule set to what we have now. I just wish it would be AL pitchers hitting instead.
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I agree. DH doesn't really make a lot of sense to me from a rules standpoint. I mean, why stop at the pitcher? Why can't Andrelton Simmons have a designated hitter?
 
#4      

unimaroon

U
Baja Ontario
unimaroon
My .02 - I am a life long Cardinal fan and NL partisan who has lived many, many years in an AL baseball environment. My thinking on the DH rule has changed over time and I now prefer the DH to the semi-automatic out let down of the pitcher batting. Part of the strategy in NL games is to IBB a hitter in order to get to the pitcher and end a potential offensive threat. Similarly, the double switch seems contrived and doesn't keep the best players in the lineup for my enjoyment. And the NL is always at a disadvatage in inter-league play, including the WS. The DH isn't going away, fans younger than me (lots) have played the game this way "forever", and the the NL & AL need to be on the same page. Matt Holiday would be a nice option at DH.
 
#5      

SoxFanCPA

S
SoxFanCPA
Allowing the pitcher to bat is absolute waste of time. Pitching is a full-time gig. They don't have the time to practice hitting and therefore are atrocious at it. It's like having a QB also play defense.
 
#6      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
I'm an NL guy and really don't care for the DH, but I have come to reason that I would like to see the whole league play by the same rules, with the DH or not. I agree with maroon, the AL just absolutely houses the NL because of this outside of 5 teams from the NL annually.

I do wonder a couple of things: How much time is enough time for the 15 NL teams to develop DH style lineups. I say about 3 years for that. I also wonder, where does it end with rule changes? Why not have multiple DH's as John Smoltz has suggested? Each league would be balanced, so why not why not change the schedule and play a more round robin style of schedule since there are 162 games and get the absolute 10 best teams in the playoffs each year. One bonus of that, we can make the all star game fun again, instead of it determining home field.

Another thing to think about, it was suggested that the pitcher is a semi-automatic out, while maybe true, do you really want to see guys like Ryan Howard and his semi-automatic out of an average of .225 in the lineup everyday? He might be able to hit one over the fence 20 times a year for the next four years, but I would argue you have a better option on the bench who is a complete ball player who could help your team defensively and offensively with a double switch late in games.
 
#7      

IlliniBone54

I
IlliniBone54
Ryllini said:
I'm an NL guy and really don't care for the DH, but I have come to reason that I would like to see the whole league play by the same rules, with the DH or not. I agree with maroon, the AL just absolutely houses the NL because of this outside of 5 teams from the NL annually.

I do wonder a couple of things: How much time is enough time for the 15 NL teams to develop DH style lineups. I say about 3 years for that. I also wonder, where does it end with rule changes? Why not have multiple DH's as John Smoltz has suggested? Each league would be balanced, so why not why not change the schedule and play a more round robin style of schedule since there are 162 games and get the absolute 10 best teams in the playoffs each year. One bonus of that, we can make the all star game fun again, instead of it determining home field.

Another thing to think about, it was suggested that the pitcher is a semi-automatic out, while maybe true, do you really want to see guys like Ryan Howard and his semi-automatic out of an average of .225 in the lineup everyday? He might be able to hit one over the fence 20 times a year for the next four years, but I would argue you have a better option on the bench who is a complete ball player who could help your team defensively and offensively with a double switch late in games.
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At the same time the DH position does give the manager a lot of options as well. It can keep a player in the lineup without having to put them out in the field every once in a while. Gets them a little more rest without having to sacrifice their bat. Not to mention it can help extend a players career. Don't know if David Ortiz would still be playing at the pro league if he was forced into playing in the field more often, but he's still clearly a valuable hitter. Admittedly so I'm in favor of the DH rule so my position is a little bias.

I completely agree on the point that theoretically a pitcher should be able to hit. However, this doesn't really happen except for some exceptions and I would personally rather see a more competent batter in the box.
 
#8      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
IlliniBone54 said:
At the same time the DH position does give the manager a lot of options as well. It can keep a player in the lineup without having to put them out in the field every once in a while. Gets them a little more rest without having to sacrifice their bat. Not to mention it can help extend a players career. Don't know if David Ortiz would still be playing at the pro league if he was forced into playing in the field more often, but he's still clearly a valuable hitter. Admittedly so I'm in favor of the DH rule so my position is a little bias.

I completely agree on the point that theoretically a pitcher should be able to hit. However, this doesn't really happen except for some exceptions and I would personally rather see a more competent batter in the box.
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For sure, there are benefits as you mentioned, while in favor of NL rules, I do really want to see every team on the same level playing field. You bring up an excellent point of Ortiz, but he is rare breed and now there will be 15 more slots to fill just like his. Granted there are plenty of teams that shuffle their DH's, but my point is why should a guy like Ryan Howard and the gargantuan contracts be afforded that luxury of hanging around with a .220 average. Hell, we have a guy who is treading to that territory in Matt Adams. He doesn't even sniff the career Howard has had, but he will be afforded a longer career of being big, sloppy and out of shape because he can occasionally hit it over when he isn't hurt, because of his body type. It is rewarding players past their prime or big and out of shape, but you are cutting out guys who can do it all on the field, because the homerun sells.

It is what it is, I am the most curious to see how long they give teams to get their affairs in order. There could be a few teams out there that could have a gripe if the rule is implemented by say 2017. The argument, well if we knew it would be this soon, we would've offered player A or B back in 2015 or 2016, because he would fit those specific rules.
 
#9      

SoxFanCPA

S
SoxFanCPA
Ryllini said:
For sure, there are benefits as you mentioned, while in favor of NL rules, I do really want to see every team on the same level playing field. You bring up an excellent point of Ortiz, but he is rare breed and now there will be 15 more slots to fill just like his. Granted there are plenty of teams that shuffle their DH's, but my point is why should a guy like Ryan Howard and the gargantuan contracts be afforded that luxury of hanging around with a .220 average. Hell, we have a guy who is treading to that territory in Matt Adams. He doesn't even sniff the career Howard has had, but he will be afforded a longer career of being big, sloppy and out of shape because he can occasionally hit it over when he isn't hurt, because of his body type. It is rewarding players past their prime or big and out of shape, but you are cutting out guys who can do it all on the field, because the homerun sells.

It is what it is, I am the most curious to see how long they give teams to get their affairs in order. There could be a few teams out there that could have a gripe if the rule is implemented by say 2017. The argument, well if we knew it would be this soon, we would've offered player A or B back in 2015 or 2016, because he would fit those specific rules.
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You need to get past batting average. It is a completely outdated, archaic stat. Ryan Howard has a .349 career OBP and .868 OPS. Who cares about his batting average? If you bat .300 but don't draw walks or hit for power, you aren't good.
 
#10      

icengineer

I
Southern Illinois
icengineer
SoxFanCPA said:
You need to get past batting average. It is a completely outdated, archaic stat. Ryan Howard has a .349 career OBP and .868 OPS. Who cares about his batting average? If you bat .300 but don't draw walks or hit for power, you aren't good.
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I understand where you are coming from, but without looking for the stats (if anyone keeps them), I'd guess the vast majority of .300 hitters get plenty of walks. Having that good of an eye, and working the pitch count, should result in above average walks I'd think. Am I wrong? :noidea:
 
#11      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
SoxFanCPA said:
You need to get past batting average. It is a completely outdated, archaic stat. Ryan Howard has a .349 career OBP and .868 OPS. Who cares about his batting average? If you bat .300 but don't draw walks or hit for power, you aren't good.
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I spoke in comparison about his career and it was a good one, but you need to take a look at his past 4 seasons and get back to me on his career averages in OPS and OBP, they aren't at career marks anymore. Granted 3 and 4 years ago were riddled by injury, but he has been relatively healthy the past two and guess what, trend continues. So yes, he isn't good, but his baseball life gets expanded.

Listen do I want the DH, no, but I do want the same rules across the board so the two leagues can assemble batting lineuos of similar ilk. Think about this, baseball is the only sport where the defense controls the ball 99.999999% of the time and now and since '73 a player doesn't have to play defense anymore?
 
#12      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
I'm sorry to any Ryan Howard fans, I was just using him as an example to the type of players that gets expanded life when the NL adopts the DH. Adam Dunn is another example, can't play BASEBALL everyday, but can still hit a long way.
 
#13      

Fillory

F
4th Floor Grainger
Fillory
DeadIShooter said:
I agree. DH doesn't really make a lot of sense to me from a rules standpoint. I mean, why stop at the pitcher? Why can't Andrelton Simmons have a designated hitter?
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At this point, based on the way baseball is played in college and up, it's arguable that the NL isn't even real baseball anymore as the DH is a part of the game at every noteworthy level. It makes all the sense in the world.

It's not a matter of "if" but "when".
 
#14      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
My order of preference:

1. Both leagues go to the current National League rule.
2. Both leagues go to a hybrid rule, a sort of "Designated Pinch Hitter."
3. Both leagues go to the current American League rule.
4. Things stay the same.

Realistically, the Union won't let #1 happen unless the owners give up a lot of things they don't want to give up. I'm not sure there are enough forward-thinking people involved in baseball right now to make #2 happen. So, given the most likely choice between both leagues having the DH or things staying the same, I'll take both teams having the DH.
 
#15      

Fillory

F
4th Floor Grainger
Fillory
champaignchris said:
My order of preference:

1. Both leagues go to the current National League rule.
2. Both leagues go to a hybrid rule, a sort of "Designated Pinch Hitter."
3. Both leagues go to the current American League rule.
4. Things stay the same.

Realistically, the Union won't let #1 happen unless the owners give up a lot of things they don't want to give up. I'm not sure there are enough forward-thinking people involved in baseball right now to make #2 happen. So, given the most likely choice between both leagues having the DH or things staying the same, I'll take both teams having the DH.
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As a Cubs fan, this is the most realistic thought process re: DH in the NL. At the end of the day, the DH is good for the players and their Union.
 
#16      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
champaignchris said:
My order of preference:

1. Both leagues go to the current National League rule.
2. Both leagues go to a hybrid rule, a sort of "Designated Pinch Hitter."
3. Both leagues go to the current American League rule.
4. Things stay the same.

Realistically, the Union won't let #1 happen unless the owners give up a lot of things they don't want to give up. I'm not sure there are enough forward-thinking people involved in baseball right now to make #2 happen. So, given the most likely choice between both leagues having the DH or things staying the same, I'll take both teams having the DH.
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What is the real root of the problem? I'm guessing it really isn't offense, I'd say without the numbers in front of me, that between the two leagues there isn't more than a full run scored per game on average. Combined score per game maybe, but not on average per team. I have been wrong before. To me, this is all about length of time per game and this doesn't do anything to fix it. I'd rather them limit mound visits per inning/game. Catcher/pitcher and when the manager comes out. Limit pitching changes in the middle of an inning. Time doesn't really bother me, but I definitely see how that is a huge problem for the casual/new fan. The problem could be injuries, but I would say it is minimal that it happens to pitchers while batting, usually the injuries are pitching related. Waino didn't get hurt because of the at bat, that tendon could snapped at any time, walking down the stairs or planting on a delivery.
 
#17      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Ryllini said:
What is the real root of the problem? I'm guessing it really isn't offense, I'd say without the numbers in front of me, that between the two leagues there isn't more than a full run scored per game on average. Combined score per game maybe, but not on average per team. I have been wrong before. To me, this is all about length of time per game and this doesn't do anything to fix it. I'd rather them limit mound visits per inning/game. Catcher/pitcher and when the manager comes out. Limit pitching changes in the middle of an inning. Time doesn't really bother me, but I definitely see how that is a huge problem for the casual/new fan. The problem could be injuries, but I would say it is minimal that it happens to pitchers while batting, usually the injuries are pitching related. Waino didn't get hurt because of the at bat, that tendon could snapped at any time, walking down the stairs or planting on a delivery.
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To me it's more the fact that the two leagues aren't really separate leagues anymore. With year-round inter-league play and the All Star game deciding home field in the World Series, they're more like conferences in the same league. Having the DH in one, but not the other is kind of like having the three point shot in the Western Conference of the NBA, but not in the Eastern Conference.

As for the differences between the leagues, last year's average team...

Runs scored per game: AL - 4.38, NL - 4.11. So, that's basically an extra run every four games.

Batting average and on base percentage were virtually identical, but SLG was .412 in the AL and .397 in the NL, with home runs making up almost all of that difference.

AL teams hit about 1.09 HRs a game last year, while NL teams hit .94.
 
#18      

bdutts

bdutts
Houston, Texas
bdutts
DH will implemented in the NL in the next collective bargaining session.
 
#19      

skamin7

skamin7
Wellington, FL
skamin7
I hate the DH rule with a passion. next we are going to have a designated fielder stand next to the pitcher so he doesn't have to catch too.
 
#20      

Illwinsagain

Illwinsagain
Cary, IL
Illwinsagain
Not a fan of the DH. Of course, I am not a fan of interleague play either. I think it waters down the Allstar game and the World Series. No one seems to care. To be fair (as if that is important), if the DH happens in the NL, is should be done over a period of time, so that teams can plan for it. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, don't want to hear a team complaining that they would have signed this FA or not traded that guy, if they knew this was coming. I would think 2-3 years of drafts and FA classes would be long enough, after passing the change.
 
#21      

ChicagoIllini

C
ChicagoIllini
Illwinsagain said:
Not a fan of the DH. Of course, I am not a fan of interleague play either. I think it waters down the Allstar game and the World Series. No one seems to care. To be fair (as if that is important), if the DH happens in the NL, is should be done over a period of time, so that teams can plan for it. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, don't want to hear a team complaining that they would have signed this FA or not traded that guy, if they knew this was coming. I would think 2-3 years of drafts and FA classes would be long enough, after passing the change.
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It could happen as soon as the 2017 season.

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/1/23/10815826/mlb-national-league-designated-hitter

Although the quarterly owners' meeting provided little insight into the DH discussion, Manfred let it slip that the topic could be settled in the upcoming Collective Bargaining Agreement negotiation, with implementation approaching as soon as 2017.
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#22      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
I prefer the nl game, but it's stupid to have different rules, and they aren't going to take the dh away from the AL, so...
 
#24      

IanKEvans2

IanKEvans2
IanKEvans2
illini8507 said:
I prefer the nl game, but it's stupid to have different rules, and they aren't going to take the dh away from the AL, so...
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This is exactly where I stand. For a few years now the DH in the NL has seemed like an inevitability.
 
#25      

Bomb Squad 217

B
Bomb Squad 217
illini8507 said:
I prefer the nl game, but it's stupid to have different rules, and they aren't going to take the dh away from the AL, so...
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Thats my thoughts as well. Either add it to the NL or take it from the AL. Seems silly to me to have different rules. A good argument, I think, is do you want the nearly sure fire out from the pitcher batting or the chance to add a great hitter to the lineup. Adding a great hitter adds more excitement IMO. Makes the offense better and gives the fans more reason to come out and watch a game. Gives the manager different lineup options obviously. Im sure theres plenty of other +/- both ways but looking at it, why not just add the DH to the NL too?