If you look at your nicely put together list of leaders you will notice a lot of guards and a big that was never seen as a good rebounder. Egwu was a lot of things but a glass cleaner was not one. Thorne and Black are the first decent rebounders Groce has had so let's see what they do.
Illini Basketball 2016-2017
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If you look at your nicely put together list of leaders you will notice a lot of guards and a big that was never seen as a good rebounder. Egwu was a lot of things but a glass cleaner was not one. Thorne and Black are the first decent rebounders Groce has had so let's see what they do.
Regardless of system-based numerical rebounding deficiencies (electing to abandon the offensive glass in favor of transition defense - this is an analytics-based approach that lots of top basketball minds support), we will be a formidable rebounding team this year for arguably the first time in the Groce era. Hill, Black, and Thorne are all above average at their positions. Presumably, Jordan, DJW, and Kipper will all be solid on the glass coming off the bench. Hopefully JCL can contribute 4-5 rebounds/game, as well.
Yet to be memtioned is the incredible gains in the strength and conditionig part of the program. The fact that upperclassman made huge gains certainly makes it seem like the previous system was seriously flawed. This definitely would manifest itself in poor rebounding. I would say this, as much as anything other then injuries has caused our previous rebounding woes. Mav is no longer wearing cement shoes. Hill. And others gained 4" on their vert, I mean come on, there will be a huge differnce in athleticism this year.
Well to be fair to Groce, didn't Egwu improve in rebounding every season? And fun fact, Egwu finished 3rd in the B1G in offensive rebounds in 14-15.
Also, having Hill as a PF and Finke as a C is definitely a good excuse for being bad at rebounding. Those are both undersized guys in the positions they were forced to play.
Is Izzo really a good rebounding coach, or does he bring in the athletic, talented players who make him look good? Probably a mixture of the 2. Like others have said, this year we have the bodies to compete on the boards. Let's see how we do before blaming Groce.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
Strength and conditioning certainly can't hurt, but I think a lot of coaches would tell you that rebounding is more about anticipation, positioning, technique and desire. Two of those you can teach, the other two not so much.
Nope, it was just focused on different things.
The idea that these kids weren't working their behinds off every single day before Adam Fletcher got here betrays a total lack of understanding of D1 sports.
That such intense focus was placed on pure power lifting in our offseason program means a bunch of other stuff was chucked overboard. There are only 24 hours in a day.
As the previous poster mentioned, you cannot underestimate the intangibles when it comes to rebounding-instinct, hustle, desire, toughness. The list can go on. With the addition of the injured players, one would think that the rebounding should improve this year.
Yeah that was scrapped this summer.
Yes, Izzo is a really good rebounding coach. His "war drill" is legendary. He's the man.
Agree mostly. Everything else being equal, I would chose bigger, stronger, faster all day long. But, everything else is never equal.
If "desire" is one of the two attributes that you are saying isn't teachable, I will disagree. If the coaching staff emphasizes rebounding, makes it a primary focus by practicing it every single day, by rewarding players who are the best rebounders, I think the team would respond, that is, find that desire.
Good to hear. I figure that time should be spent on something that better translates to basketball.
Joel Goodson
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The SEAL training was a few days (2-3, IIRC) and it's primary purpose, by far, was as a team building exercise. Had nothing to do with our lack of success, IMO.
Agreed. Practicing mental toughness and teamwork do in fact make for a better team. A high percentage of injuries to key players however, makes for a worse basketball team. Still don't understand how some people can't equate that.
Not sure I follow. Listing a few individual per game stats is supposed to prove something about the team rebounding and defense?
I think it's been mainly personnel related. As mentioned, Egwu was not the strongest DR% guy and last year we were missing Thorne and Black. I don't think rebounding is the strongest part of the defense Groce has put out on the court, but the defense had been solid up until last season. I'll be very surprised if we don't have a solid defense again this season, assuming we stay healthy.
We are discussing my perception/opinion, that our rebounding woes are due in part to the tactics employed by the staff. I didn't present a few random stats, but the two leading rebounders of each of the last four seasons. It's a little data that I think supports my opinion.
I think you're saying there are many variables that have contributed to our consistent mediocre to poor showing on the glass including last season's disaster of ranking in the bottom 8%. I agree with that, including that personnel is one of those variables.
We have a four year record now. Groce has had the chance to recruit personnel that fit his system.
Like you, I also hope Thorne will do much to reverse the record, but gosh, we have him for one year, hopefully, not a college career; and he is a player returning from injury and has other health issues. I'll be happy if he makes it through the year and averages 20 mpg.
Black fouls and has anger issues. I have seen no evidence that Groce has been successful teaching him to play without fouling or losing his temper. I think he will be tested by opposing players and coaches. And I don't see the referees giving him the benefit of the doubt very often. He has a reputation. Cripes, his nickname is/was Savage.
Anyway, I hope you and all the others pointing to Thorne and Black as the answer are correct.
A better way to phrase it... It's data that I think is consistent with my opinion as opposed to proving a fact.
Of course you don't have evidence, Leron's only had one healthy season. We may not be the best rebounding team in the conference but it would be crazy to think that we won't be much improved not that we'll have our two best rebounders on the floor.
Especially when we had so many new faces via new recruits and transfers the couple years we did it
No one said they were random, just not necessarily proof of your assertion.
OK, not sure I agree but yes it's not proving much.
Right, since you expanded the conversation from my original point about last year, of course there are many factors. But specific to last season, personnel was probably 99% of the reason, IMO. And to my point, it shows up in the defense rankings. For the first 3 seasons, Groce's teams were all in the top 50 of Kenpom's defense rankings. Then last year they are suddenly terrible. I don't think the system changed and DR% is a big factor in having a good defense.
Ah, so this is just another Groce rant? OK. I will agree that overall his recruiting and ability to build a roster has been disappointing. I do think however that his problems have been much more of the offensive end of the court vs defense.
Well, we also don't have any evidence that he's been unsuccessful either. And we do know that most freshmen struggle with foul issues their first season, the majority of them outgrow it. Let's wait and see, shall we?
Pet peeve, but I hate the "I hope I'm wrong" disclaimer so many use when they criticize things. If you're taking a stance, take it. Own it. Don't be a wimp and try to play both sides.
Really good stuff, I would only add that Illinois is not a program you can rebuild in 2 or 3 years. It takes multiple years of successful recruiting to do it, so yeah, Groce has been somewhat underwhelming, but this 2017 talent gives me pause and I am legitimately concerned that this program won't do a lot better than Groce.
That's silly. If we can show the commitment to hire Lovie in football, I don't believe we have to tak a flier on every future coach. Groce was close on several players that likely would have changed things quicker, but it didn't happen.
Don't apologize for being Illinois. I'm not suggesting we should expect to immediately get back to dominating the B1G, but there is a middle ground between missing 3 straight tournaments and dominating the B1G.
Not sure why you quoted me here. He's done OK with 2017, if he can win and build off it then he can survive. If not then I hope and think we'll get someone better.
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