Illini Basketball 2016-2017

#301      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Obelix said:
I mentioned consistency, but I do not personally equate leaping ability or even athleticism as explosiveness. High motor is indeed one aspect, but when I personally say "explosive" I consider a combination of athleticism, leaping ability, high motor, AND ability/desire to take over games and change the flow. Not just one game here and there, many players at this level will have the occasional game that stand outs (e.g., not scorers having the occasional high scoring games).
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Yeah, to me "consistency" does not at all come to mind when I think of "explosive", in fact, they're somewhat opposite attributes.

Now as I said, my definition is probably different than yours. I did not consider Thompson nor Bertrand explosive, but you do.
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Yes, not surprising as I considering it almost wholly an athletic attribute vs a compilation of many loosely related attributes. I would say they are explosive athletes, maybe not explosive players. The latter could mean many different things so doesn't really tell much.

Given my posting history over the years on Illini boards and Tupper's writing, I would actually be surprised if that is what Tupper meant as well when he wrote that.
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No idea what this means unless you're confessing to be Mark Tupper?
 
#302      

Monte Carlo

Monte Carlo
Monte Carlo
Obelix said:
Again, while there is some correlation between explosiveness and athleticism, I do not personally consider it the same thing. Explosiveness IMO assumes ability to assert yourself in a game, and have the ability to take over games with athleticism at a more consistent basis. Change the flow of the game with athleticism, not just the occasional highlight dunk. Sam Thompson has always been a very athletic player, who never really asserted himself in college. Joseph Bertrand is another example. He would win every dunk contest, do all the dunks between legs etc.. never really considered him explosive. Did you consider Bertrand explosive?

I have no idea what Tupper means, or whether my personal definition/perception of the two words is what he means. As far as Kipper, I have not seen him play but once I see him play in college for sometime, I will definitely tell you whether I consider him "explosive." But he is very athletic.
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Seems your definition is more one of assertion that athletic explosiveness.
 
#303      

Monte Carlo

Monte Carlo
Monte Carlo
Obelix said:
I agree, and nobody doubts Sam Thompson was/is a terrific athlete. Saw him in HS many times as well, and actually did expect him to become an explosive player in college. Bertrand was fantastic athlete as far as dunks, between legs, some fantastic highlights. Never explosive IMO.

Kipper is way above "not a poor athlete" level and looks more than "decent athletically." Per post I responded, dunks, vertical jumps, etc. are definitely signs of very good athleticism.

For me athletic is not = explosive but if other people use them as synonyms that is fine.
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I thought Roger Powell was pretty doggone explosive. For his height he got up with the best of them on some rim-rocking dunks. I don't think Leron is anywhere in the same league as Roger, but maybe DJ is, just haven't seen enough to know. Leron doesn't strike me as above average athletically.
 
#306      

illineuron

I
illineuron
So if Kipper were "explosive" based upon your examples then we could expect him to go in at least the top ten in the 2018 draft?
 
#307      

hodgesonfire

H
hodgesonfire
While explosiveness and athleticism are good on offence a less quick player can still use size, shooting touch and tenacity to score and rebound. Where quickness really is crucial is on defence especially with the new hand check rules and the shift to 3 shooters on the arc. Quick teams like Duke have always done well because they recover to shooters and can guard dribblers, forcing teams into more midrange shots. This is where we struggled last year and may struggle agsin this season, but Tracy will really help imo. He's a good one on one defender and can let Hill stick to a 3 on defense and a quicker 2 or 1
 
#308      

FatGreg

F
FatGreg
I think almost everyone would agree that Sam Thompson is an explosive athlete. Joe Bertrand was also explosive. Other athletes that would generally be considered explosive include Zach LaVine, James "Flight" White, Calvin Brock, Harold Miner, and Iman Shumpert. Presumably Obelix would classify them as "extremely athletic, but not necessarily explosive."

It's a silly semantic argument that hinges on this: the standard definition of athletic explosiveness is a combination of sprinting speed, leaping ability, short area quickness, and change of direction. A person could be an explosive athlete without ever picking up a ball. Obelix has a personal variation that involves motor, tenacity, and the necessary skills to take over games at crucial moments. It's like deciding that a trilby may cover your head, but due to its shorter brim it's not what you'd consider a hat.
 
#311      

illineuron

I
illineuron
Obelix said:
Relax Sherlock... being that type of player does not necessarily mean that good of player overall or so fast either. But if you mean to have more of an overall impact than Bertrand, for example, by the time he leaves, yes.

As I said, I have not seen Kipper play, so my statement has absolutely nothing to do with Kipper. You can go argue with Tupper though.
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Sorry if you were offended. When you offer only two examples of "explosive" players and they are both exceptional college players, high draft picks, those examples seem to bring clarity to your interpretation of the word, establish a standard, so to speak, and might be considered predictive, again, based upon your two examples. If you believe that extrapolation to be in error you might consider that you own the error. Or don't.
 
#312      

Obelix

Obelix
Obelix
illineuron said:
Sorry if you were offended. When you offer only two examples of "explosive" players and they are both exceptional college players, high draft picks, those examples seem to bring clarity to your interpretation of the word, establish a standard, so to speak, and might be considered predictive, again, based upon your two examples. If you believe that extrapolation to be in error you might consider that you own the error. Or don't.
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I did not get offended at all. I offered two examples of the "type" of player, style of player who I consider explosive. Do these explosive players tend to be good players who make high contributions? Of course. But my examples had nothing to do with expecting Kipper to be that good that early, which is the implication that you made. As I said multiple times, I have not seen Kipper. We can all watch his career and revisit whether he was explosive or not.

As far as an example of a player who I consider very "explosive" but never had enough to make it to the NBA (other than 10 day contract), Thanassis Antetokounmpo (Greek Freak's brother) is a recent example. "T" or "Tenacity" (as Phil Jackson called him - instead of Thanassis) is a very athletic, great leaper, high energy, high motor, great defender, high tenacity player. Very explosive. Unfortunately, other deficiencies (e.g., shooting) kept him 3 years in D-league and now in Europe.

But there is no doubt that there is a general high correlation between players that I consider explosive, not only with athleticism (as already mentioned), but with impact/contributions. Again, that is JMO.
 
#314      

Golfer63

G
Golfer63
My pre-season predictions:

1. Wisconsin
They return everybody from last year's surprise run to the S16.

2. Michigan State
Schilling's injury knocks them out of the top spot. They lost a lot from last year, but brought in a Kentucky-esque recruiting class.

3. Indiana
Losing Yogi is a huge loss, but they have some nice pieces that make them dangerous.

4. Purdue
They could finish as high as 3rd or as low as 6th depending on how well Spike pans out at PG. Purdue's lack of PG play got badly exposed against UALR in the tourney last year. Still, they return most of their key guys and should be a tough out.

5. Michigan
Made it to the tourney last year without LaVert. And they return all of those key guys that helped them get to the tourney last year.

6. Illinois
Sporting News has Illinois finishing 6th. I've seen other outlets picking them as low as 11th, which is asinine.
Three key players return from injury:
Tracy Abrams. The pessimists claim that he won't impact much this year. I get Abrams isn't elite like a Yogi Ferrell or a Melo Trimble, but let's imagine that former tOSU PG Aaron Craft had another year of eligibility and he chose to come to Illinois. Most fans would be ecstatic. Adding Tracy is essentially like adding an Aaron Craft to the team. Not an elite talent, but has the same tenacity and leadership intangibles that made Craft the most hated player to anyone outside of the state of Ohio.
Leron Black. Pessimists have already written him off as a bust. They seem to forget that he had a few great games his freshman year that showed what he could become. He was a Top 40 recruit for a reason and if he were two inches taller, he would have been a burger boy for sure. In Abrams and Black, Illinois has two players that you love if you're an Illini fan, and you absolutely hate if you are a fan of any other B1G team.
Mike Thorne. Pessimists write him off as the typical Illinois grad transfer who excels during non conference, but then falls back to earth against tougher B1G competition. News flash, KANSAS and KENTUCKY wanted Thorne. This guy is a load and is easily a top 4 big man in the league.

Malcolm Hill said it best in his interview with Joe Crispin. Whenever the team was fully healthy, (and he mentions even then they still weren't all the way healthy with Abrams being out and Leron not being 100%) they beat a NCAA tourney qualifying UAB team by 15. And they were leading Iowa State, the #4 team in the country at the time, in the first half whenever Thorne went down with his injury. CBS's Jon Rothstein says it best, this team is an NCAA tournament team when fully healthy. The Illini will validate that claim this season and get the program trending back in the right direction.

7. Ohio State
This is a dark horse team according to several experts. Their 1-6 rotation is solid, but after that is where their mass exodus of transfers this off season is going to haunt them. They will have their moments this year and get some quality wins, but they simply don't have enough depth to contend this year.

8. Maryland
Another dark horse pick according to some. Dickie V even has them as his pre-season #17 team. :confused:
Look, we get how great of a player Melo Trimble is, but let's not pretend like LeBron James is suiting up in College Park this season. The Terps simply lost way too much to be a contender this year. If they'd have brought in the kind of recruiting class that Michigan State did, then they could be taken more seriously.
Bottom line, this team's star is a 6'1" PG; not a 6'8" specimen who can play all 5 positions and single handedly take a team to the promised land.

9. Northwestern

The kitty cats continue to improve under Chris Collins. They aren't quite NCAA tournament ready but they are getting closer. Getting Vic Law back this year will be a huge boost for them.

10. Iowa
They lost everybody except Jok. Jok will be able to keep them in some games but it will be a rebuilding year in Iowa City.

11. Penn State
Talented recruiting class. Hopefully this class can see some success in their careers. Chambers seems like a good dude so hopefully he can keep Penn State respectable.

12. Minnesota
Do Gopher fans miss Tubby yet? The Gophers brought in a decent recruiting class, but they will have their growing pains, which will lead to another basement dwelling season. Little Richard will be feeling the heat.

13. Nebraska
The 'Nebrasketball' hype train has offically derailed. Hopefully Miles can get it back on track though. Watson is a solid piece to build around.

14. Rutgers
Rutgers....
 
#319      

FiveStar

F
FiveStar
Now that we have a clearer picture on his injury I think the good news is in the small details. One, the pinky doesn't have a whole lot to do with your shot even on your shooting hand, and two, the injury wasn't somewhere that could mess with his range of motion on his shot. I'm relieved as those were my concerns and I am ready for thie season.
 
#320      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
Golfer63 said:
8. Maryland
Another dark horse pick according to some. Dickie V even has them as his pre-season #17 team. :confused:
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He still probably thinks they're in the ACC. Let him know they're B10 and he'll drop 'em like a bad habit.
 
#323      

Newman

N
Newman
Golfer63 said:
My pre-season predictions:



8. Maryland
Another dark horse pick according to some. Dickie V even has them as his pre-season #17 team. :confused:
Look, we get how great of a player Melo Trimble is, but let's not pretend like LeBron James is suiting up in College Park this season. The Terps simply lost way too much to be a contender this year. If they'd have brought in the kind of recruiting class that Michigan State did, then they could be taken more seriously.
Bottom line, this team's star is a 6'1" PG; not a 6'8" specimen who can play all 5 positions and single handedly take a team to the promised land.
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It's tough. I could see them being pretty good so the dark horse label might be fair but I could also see them being very average and end up 8th or 9th. They have some interesting pieces at every position and could be a pretty dangerous team if they start clicking, especially if Dion Wiley takes a leap. Melo is not their only threat, he's just their star.
 
#324      

Second and Chalmers

S
Second and Chalmers
Newman said:
It's tough. I could see them being pretty good so the dark horse label might be fair but I could also see them being very average and end up 8th or 9th. They have some interesting pieces at every position and could be a pretty dangerous team if they start clicking, especially if Dion Wiley takes a leap. Melo is not their only threat, he's just their star.
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It's an oversimplification, but I feel like this time of year everyone always thinks the teams with bad coaches and an institutional culture of losing are going to overtake the teams with good coaches and an institutional culture of winning because the winning teams lost a lot of guys and the losing teams are bringing back all the players that have been losing. And then it never happens.

Obviously that thought is in direct conflict with my optimism about this Illini team. So....we'll see I guess.
 
#325      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
Second and Chalmers said:
It's an oversimplification, but I feel like this time of year everyone always thinks the teams with bad coaches and an institutional culture of losing are going to overtake the teams with good coaches and an institutional culture of winning because the winning teams lost a lot of guys and the losing teams are bringing back all the players that have been losing. And then it never happens.

Obviously that thought is in direct conflict with my optimism about this Illini team. So....we'll see I guess.
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You give MD and Turgeon far more credit than I would.