Illini Basketball 2017-2018

ballislife17 · May 3, 2017

FiveStar said:
Leron can easily do the minimum at the 5 spot in this offense, you're not giving him enough credit. He can set screens for cutters, and as a tough dude in general, he'll probably set really good ones. He might pick up a couple fouls on screens here and there, but setting a hard screen also sends a message. He has already been used in ball screens, so playing pick/handoff and roll on the open backside won't be new to him. He can hit a baby hook if he posts up off the roll, especially if its a good screen that forces a switch and he's covered by a guard. He's proven he can hit the elbow j, and at times step out to the 3, if his man sags off to help on the cutters.

As far as development, no doubt he will need to get better at passing as you say. Underwood really prioritizes passing. He's said many times he really thinks passing is under-practiced in today's game. Leron also needs to advance to the point that he can make a game move (pump, jab, Sikma) off the threat of his elbow J and score in one dribble. A counter to his baby hook in the post would be helpful too.

I get that Leron is not the most skilled dude in the world, but to say he can't play the 5 is not true. Also in this offense, people need to stop lumping the 4 and 5 together. The 4 is closer to the 1 in this continuity than the 5.

I was not lumping them together, I didn't even address the 4 because there is no way I can see Leron playing it.

I did think about how screen setting is big for whoever is playing the 5, and I agree if the defense switches a PnR that he could have a mismatch, but I still don't think he is a great fit for the offense just because he can be used.

BUs system is designed so every player can have success in it in some way, however, I do not expect the staff to recruit anymore fives who are in the mold of Leron.

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Calvin · May 3, 2017

FiveStar said:
Leron can easily do the minimum at the 5 spot in this offense, you're not giving him enough credit. He can set screens for cutters, and as a tough dude in general, he'll probably set really good ones. He might pick up a couple fouls on screens here and there, but setting a hard screen also sends a message. He has already been used in ball screens, so playing pick/handoff and roll on the open backside won't be new to him. He can hit a baby hook if he posts up off the roll, especially if its a good screen that forces a switch and he's covered by a guard. He's proven he can hit the elbow j, and at times step out to the 3, if his man sags off to help on the cutters.

As far as development, no doubt he will need to get better at passing as you say. Underwood really prioritizes passing. He's said many times he really thinks passing is under-practiced in today's game. Leron also needs to advance to the point that he can make a game move (pump, jab, Sikma) off the threat of his elbow J and score in one dribble. A counter to his baby hook in the post would be helpful too.

I get that Leron is not the most skilled dude in the world, but to say he can't play the 5 is not true. Also in this offense, people need to stop lumping the 4 and 5 together. The 4 is closer to the 1 in this continuity than the 5.

Yeah, I don't get how folks can say Leron under Groce is going to be the Leron under BU. Leron is coachable, and has a good motor. Those two things are a great fit. He'll be asked to do different things, but it's going to be within a very different offensive flow.

FiveStar · May 3, 2017

ballislife17 said:
I was not lumping them together,

ballislife17 said:

It's not a personal knock on Leron, but he is a terrible fit. He cannot play the 4 or the 5 in this offense

Click to expand...

I did think about how screen setting is big for whoever is playing the 5, and I agree if the defense switches a PnR that he could have a mismatch, but I still don't think he is a great fit for the offense just because he can be used.

BUs system is designed so every player can have success in it in some way, however, I do not expect the staff to recruit anymore fives who are in the mold of Leron.

We are lacking guys taller than our current head coach. He was not recruited for this system. We have no "big" depth. He is not the prototype player for a BU offense, correct. But right now, he does fit because he can be used, can do the basics needed out of that position, and we have literally no other options. If you know enough to know that the offense can be tailored for any player to have success, you know enough to know that Leron can play the 5 effectively enough in his current state.

ballislife17 · May 3, 2017

FiveStar said:
We are lacking guys taller than our current head coach. He was not recruited for this system. We have no "big" depth. He is not the prototype player for a BU offense, correct. But right now, he does fit because he can be used, can do the basics needed out of that position, and we have literally no other options. If you know enough to know that the offense can be tailored for any player to have success, you know enough to know that Leron can play the 5 in his current state.

Agreed that Leron will play a lot, but that is due to lack front court of depth, not exceptional fit in the offense. I think we are on the same page about that.

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FiveStar · May 3, 2017

ballislife17 said:
Agreed that Leron will play a lot, but that is due to lack front court of depth, not exceptional fit in the offense. I think we are on the same page about that.

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Exceptional fit would be increased passing ability, ability to make a game move and score off one dribble from the high post. He'll never play the 1-4 cause we won't need him to. For a D1 player, these are not things that should be hard to get better at in all honesty.

Greensboro · May 3, 2017

Calvin said:
Yeah, I don't get how folks can say Leron under Groce is going to be the Leron under BU. Leron is coachable, and has a good motor. Those two things are a great fit. He'll be asked to do different things, but it's going to be within a very different offensive flow.

+1, he averaged 8 ppg in 20 mpg last year, nothing wrong with that

kuhl84 · May 3, 2017

Calvin said:
I don't get this comment. What makes you say that about Leron? He's an outstanding rebounder, and could pick up a lot of garbage points in this system. He's got a killer instinct and very coachable IMO.

He has not been a willing or competent passer, which limits his fit as a 5, and has not demonstrated any "guard skills" which would allow fit as a 4.

LB does have a motor and seems to work hard. I would not rule out that these skills could be developed, but to date have not been demonstrated.

icengineer · May 3, 2017

Doesn't Leron compare favorably with the guys who played the 5 on OSU's team last year? If so, what's the beef? This is the staff's first year and they've got some decent guys with experience. We can't just clean house and jump right into the thick of things from the get-go. It's a transition year. Let's have some patience.

Bubba Eder · May 3, 2017

icengineer said:
Doesn't Leron compare favorably with the guys who played the 5 on OSU's team last year? If so, what's the beef? This is the staff's first year and they've got some decent guys with experience. We can't just clean house and jump right into the thick of things from the get-go. It's a transition year. Let's have some patience.

+1,000
Very well put

kuhl84 · May 3, 2017

icengineer said:
Doesn't Leron compare favorably with the guys who played the 5 on OSU's team last year? If so, what's the beef? This is the staff's first year and they've got some decent guys with experience. We can't just clean house and jump right into the thick of things from the get-go. It's a transition year. Let's have some patience.

No one is saying LB won't contribute, or BU can't figure out how to use his strengths.

It's a response to a narrative that his system is perfect for every one. It's not a knock on LB that his skill set isn't a perfect match for what BU wants in 4's or 5's.

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IlliniMed · May 3, 2017

The fact that people are even suggesting that Leron is not wanted or needed in BU regime just makes me want to smack my face. This should not even be posted.

rockillini · May 3, 2017

IlliniMed said:
The fact that people are even suggesting that Leron is not wanted or needed in BU regime just makes me want to smack my face. This should not even be posted.

He is needed.

icengineer · May 3, 2017

kuhl84 said:
No one is saying LB won't contribute, or BU can't figure out how to use his strengths.

It's a response to a narrative that his system is perfect for every one. It's not a knock on LB that his skill set isn't a perfect match for what BU wants in 4's or 5's.

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IlliniMed said:
The fact that people are even suggesting that Leron is not wanted or needed in BU regime just makes me want to smack my face. This should not even be posted.

There seems to be some folks bemoaning the fact that we don't have a center and have doubts about Leron Black being able to contribute at that position. At this moment in time he and Finke are all we have for the 5 spot. It's not ideal

but based on how OSU played last year for BU I think we can get by just fine. Even if we were to sign someone, Black is still going to get plenty of minutes.

I haven't seen a single poster say LB isn't wanted or needed. I'm not sure if you guys are misreading my post or not, but I'm actually sticking up for BU and Black and saying that I think we will be fine next year. Is there anybody here who wouldn't be ecstatic if we had anything close to the season that OSU had last year?!?!?!? I think most of us would be doing backflips of joy!! Provided there are a few ambulances to haul us all off afterwards.

CoalCity · May 3, 2017

FiveStar said:
Exceptional fit would be increased passing ability, ability to make a game move and score off one dribble from the high post. He'll never play the 1-4 cause we won't need him to. For a D1 player, these are not things that should be hard to get better at in all honesty.

I seem to remember him actually making that move - once - last season. I about fell off my chair.

Captain Bubbles · May 3, 2017

If the pieces fall into place and everything goes right, Underwood and staff could lead the Illini to a nice record and the NCAA Tournament. It’s not a lock or guarantee that they’ll make it, as this is a new era and full of transition. However, I think year two is going to be like lightning in a bottle.

combes · May 3, 2017

Adnarel said:
The staff will be having 1-on-1 meetings with players very soon, if they haven't already started. We'll know soon if there will be any transfers.

Finke having some foot trouble.

He has been in a boot since the NIT games. Boot was supposed to come off this week.

BMo79 · May 3, 2017

ballislife17 said:
Agreed that Leron will play a lot, but that is due to lack front court of depth, not exceptional fit in the offense. I think we are on the same page about that.

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Leron will play a lot because he can rebound. BU offence is just as much about crashing the boards as anything , and Leron does do that well. I also believe we will be playing a lot of guys at the 4 and the 5 , that are a lot more like Leron then Finke. Watching the breakdown of the SFA stuff is fine and good , it does give us some idea of how things will run, but for a change we have a coach and a staff who truly will tweak things, to fit who we have. I guess for me looking at Leron vs Finke at the 5 I take a kid like JT and see who compairs more to them. lol maybe I am thinking wrong on doing that but Leron has more in common with how JT would be used then, then Finke other then a couple inchs. I do not think it matters though as long as both are Illini they will both be seeing plenty of time on the floor

ballislife17 · May 3, 2017

BMo79 said:
Leron will play a lot because he can rebound. BU offence is just as much about crashing the boards as anything , and Leron does do that well. I also believe we will be playing a lot of guys at the 4 and the 5 , that are a lot more like Leron then Finke

Whoever plays the 4 needs guard skills, so no we will not be recruiting players like Leron to play the 4.

Hopefully at the 5 we recruit players who are somewhere in the middle; skilled, but also athletic guys with a motor

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BMo79 · May 3, 2017

ballislife17 said:
Whoever plays the 4 needs guard skills, so no we will not be recruiting players like Leron to play the 4.

Hopefully at the 5 we recruit players who are somewhere in the middle; skilled, but also athletic guys with a motor

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Go back and watch some of Lerons High school stuff, he handled the ball and did shoot from outside, not tons but enough to played the 4. But not worth fighting about who will do what we will see soon enough who plays where. Just remember your talking about SFA and what he was left at OSU, same as what he has here . I truly believe you will see the offence change a bit.

ballislife17 · May 3, 2017

BMo79 said:
Go back and watch some of Lerons High school stuff, he handled the ball and did shoot from outside, not tons but enough to played the 4. But not worth fighting about who will do what we will see soon enough who plays where. Just remember your talking about SFA and what he was left at OSU, same as what he has here . I truly believe you will see the offence change a bit.

I have seen it, and while it is impressive, he has shown zero ability to do it at the collegiate level against bigger, better defenses. Although, a lot of his highlights back then were in transition, something we seldom saw under Groce, so that could be an area of the game he benefits from greatly. I was mainly talking about the half court offense though.

I really don't mean to knock Leron. He has two more years to develop, and I would love to see a Maverick-esque improvement from him.

I think one of the biggest issues for all the disagreement on this is that none of us really know how BU will utilize our players. He could use certain players completely differently than we are expecting, and there is really no right or wrong answers yet at this point. On the otherhand, it is the offseason, and most of us need our daily fix of illini basketball, so I don't see these conversations stopping anytime soon

BMo79 · May 4, 2017

ballislife17 said:
I have seen it, and while it is impressive, he has shown zero ability to do it at the collegiate level against bigger, better defenses. Although, a lot of his highlights back then were in transition, something we seldom saw under Groce, so that could be an area of the game he benefits from greatly. I was mainly talking about the half court offense though.

I really don't mean to knock Leron. He has two more years to develop, and I would love to see a Maverick-esque improvement from him.

I think one of the biggest issues for all the disagreement on this is that none of us really know how BU will utilize our players. He could use certain players completely differently than we are expecting, and there is really no right or wrong answers yet at this point. On the otherhand, it is the offseason, and most of us need our daily fix of illini basketball, so I don't see these conversations stopping anytime soon

I think the biggest things that will change are one like you said, we will not be walking the ball up the court or rolling it in, we will only get into the half court offence if we have to, Unlike how we have played slow for so long. I think the biggest change though will be, if we have a player get hot, be it shooting, getting reb. playing great d, we will not see them come out cause its been 4 mins. Lerons biggest upside is his motor, and I think he will do just fine either at the 4 or the 5. I do agree till we have seen BU here for a couple years, and see how he uses players it will be tough for us all to get the old ways of thinking about how they have/haven't been used.

bleedsorangenblue · May 4, 2017

BMo79 said:
I think the biggest things that will change are one like you said, we will not be walking the ball up the court or rolling it in, we will only get into the half court offence if we have to, Unlike how we have played slow for so long. I think the biggest change though will be, if we have a player get hot, be it shooting, getting reb. playing great d, we will not see them come out cause its been 4 mins. Lerons biggest upside is his motor, and I think he will do just fine either at the 4 or the 5. I do agree till we have seen BU here for a couple years, and see how he uses players it will be tough for us all to get the old ways of thinking about how they have/haven't been used.

One other thing we haven't seen is a willingness to adjust the system to the players at hand. Underwood has stated that he is willing to do so if it means the difference between success and failure. After starting the Big 12 season at 0-6, he made defensive changes that suited his personnel better. I don't expect to see the kind of stubbornness we have seen here in the past.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...cle_4e0da3ae-04d5-5fce-819f-34c442a966b0.html

FiveStar · May 4, 2017

BMo79 said:
Leron will play a lot because he can rebound. BU offence is just as much about crashing the boards as anything , and Leron does do that well. I also believe we will be playing a lot of guys at the 4 and the 5 , that are a lot more like Leron then Finke. Watching the breakdown of the SFA stuff is fine and good , it does give us some idea of how things will run, but for a change we have a coach and a staff who truly will tweak things, to fit who we have. I guess for me looking at Leron vs Finke at the 5 I take a kid like JT and see who compairs more to them. lol maybe I am thinking wrong on doing that but Leron has more in common with how JT would be used then, then Finke other then a couple inchs. I do not think it matters though as long as both are Illini they will both be seeing plenty of time on the floor

Guys, we really need to stop talking about 4 and 5 together in BU's offense.

Illinoise · May 4, 2017

Please reign in the expectations for next year everyone. I still think this team wins 4 or 5 league games next year. There just isn't much to work with on this current roster. I'm excited about the freshmen but they are freshmen. Another big would be great but the young kids will need some time. Enjoy watching the kids grow next year and look out for 2019!

BananaShampoo · May 4, 2017

Illinoise said:
Please reign in the expectations for next year everyone. I still think this team wins 4 or 5 league games next year. There just isn't much to work with on this current roster. I'm excited about the freshmen but they are freshmen. Another big would be great but the young kids will need some time. Enjoy watching the kids grow next year and look out for 2019!

Wow. Four or five league games? Groce could have done that. I don't think JW pours that much money into this coach and staff if he has that little faith.

Illini Basketball 2017-2018

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