Illini Basketball 2018-2019

Peoria Illini · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
I agree there is plenty of time to turn the ship back in the right direction. Nowhere have I said anything differently.

But on this board, you must deny that any issues exist at all, at least as they pertain to the head coach. Your post speaks to that narrative construction very well, that one year in is too soon to scratch at the Savior Figure narrative regardless of the facts.

I am going to be Brad Underwood's most staunch defender on this board two years from now, just by saying the exact same stuff I'm saying now. Loyaltyville is in denial about who the actual windsock is here.

LOL... are you the wind or the windsock???

There's always issues on this board and everyboard. Chicken Littles and blind loyalists. But didn't you say Underwood was in over his head? Too me that's too early a call.

If that wasn't you, then I apologize. I thought that was one of your posts.

I'll give Underwood three seasons to turn this mess around. I think that's fair. Until then, I'll temper most criticism I have of his choices.

Berg88 · Jun 14, 2018

TCTORNADO said:
When was the last time a Div I team only had 4 rostered players return??

Year 2 of Groce returned Bertrand, Abrams, Egwu, and a red-shirted Rice.

Peoria Illini · Jun 14, 2018

Berg88 said:
Year 2 of Groce returned Bertrand, Abrams, Egwu, and a red-shirted Rice.

And last year we had a whopping 5 returning players in Nicholls, Black, Jordan, Lucas and Finke.

Second and Chalmers · Jun 14, 2018

Peoria Illini said:
But didn't you say Underwood was in over his head? Too me that's too early a call.

If that wasn't you, then I apologize. I thought that was one of your posts.

I'll give Underwood three seasons to turn this mess around. I think that's fair. Until then, I'll temper most criticism I have of his choices.

No that was me, and I stand by that. But I am also very willing to take the long view. It's not like I'd fire him tomorrow, that would be stupid and counterproductive.

But I don't understand the urge not to call it like you see it from day 1. Is there some greater reward you get for ignoring all fault if things end up working out? The putrid arguments some posters are making will be no less illogical and poorly argued if we're back where we belong in three years.

Let's just win some games, shall we? Honestly, I think people are in for an emotional shock when we remember what that feels like.

AEX · Jun 14, 2018

TCTORNADO said:
Looks like the returning player number for both was 2 . Crean went 1-17 in the B1G and Stallings 0-18 at Pitt.

That's not encouraging. While I don't think things will be quite that bad, it does point to the problems that come with a lack of continuity. And this team has compounded continuity problems. New coach, working with new assistants, heading into a second year with only 4 returning players. It's not exactly a recipe for success, is it?

Skepticism aside, I would love nothing more than for this season to be the foundation on which Underwood rebuilds. Have to get that foundation to hold, though.

Peoria Illini · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
No that was me, and I stand by that. But I am also very willing to take the long view. It's not like I'd fire him tomorrow, that would be stupid and counterproductive.

But I don't understand the urge not to call it like you see it from day 1. Is there some greater reward you get for ignoring all fault if things end up working out? The putrid arguments some posters are making will be no less illogical and poorly argued if we're back where we belong in three years.

Let's just win some games, shall we? Honestly, I think people are in for an emotional shock when we remember what that feels like.

To me the urge not to call it like you see it on a message board is to give the new program a chance to get some footings set and to build something. To me jumping off year one invites more chicken littles to come out and create more crap.

I think it's counter productive to the program that we are all supposed to be more than average fans of. Does that mean hide our heads in the sand? No. But without knowing all the details about what went down with each transfer, etc., I think some of these posts fuel more havoc and panic than is needed.

But once again, that's just me. I'm too old to panic about Illini basketball games anymore. Probably a good thing the internet wasn't around when I was in college. LOL.

I agree. Let's just win some games.

imjustsooffended · Jun 14, 2018

Berg88 said:
Year 2 of Groce returned Bertrand, Abrams, Egwu, and a red-shirted Rice.

God that's depressing

PtownIllini8 · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
No that was me, and I stand by that. But I am also very willing to take the long view. It's not like I'd fire him tomorrow, that would be stupid and counterproductive.

But I don't understand the urge not to call it like you see it from day 1. Is there some greater reward you get for ignoring all fault if things end up working out? The putrid arguments some posters are making will be no less illogical and poorly argued if we're back where we belong in three years.

Let's just win some games, shall we? Honestly, I think people are in for an emotional shock when we remember what that feels like.

Oh boy.....

Obelix · Jun 14, 2018

Berg88 said:
Year 2 of Groce returned Bertrand, Abrams, Egwu, and a red-shirted Rice.

Yes, we were a bubble NCAA team and made the NIT, and fans were disappointed. Now, if we are an NCAA bubble team and make the NIT, some fans will petition for building a statue of BU in front of the SFC.

sacraig · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
Yes, we were a bubble NCAA team and made the NIT, and fans were disappointed. Now, if we are an NCAA bubble team and make the NIT, some fans will petition for building a statue of BU in front of the SFC.

I don't think that's true.

IlliniinIowa · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
Yes, we were a bubble NCAA team and made the NIT, and fans were disappointed. Now, if we are an NCAA bubble team and make the NIT, some fans will petition for building a statue of BU in front of the SFC.

I keep thinking after every season that it couldn't possibly get worse. And yet somehow it does. So sad seeing where this once mighty program has fallen....

Though I do think we are on the road back.

Deleted member 9739 · Jun 14, 2018

IlliniinIowa said:
I keep thinking after every season that it couldn't possibly get worse. And yet somehow it does. So sad seeing where this once mighty program has fallen....

Though I do think we are on the road back.

I agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, it's, as Paul McCartney said, a long and winding road.

Peoria Illini · Jun 14, 2018

sacraig said:
I don't think that's true.

Not sure how close to the bubble we were. Did make the NIT. Started out well, went 2-0 in the Big Ten, then dropped 10 of the next 11 conference games. Came back to finish 7-11 in the Big Ten, 19-14 overall. Went 1-1 in the BTT and 1-1 in the NIT losing to Clemson in the 2nd round.

Had a good incoming recruiting class as well, with Hill and Nunn. Had more scoring punch and leadership coming back in Bertrand, Rice and Abrams, will need Kipper, Trent and Damonte/AJ to fill those roles. Missing a defensive stopper like Nnanna for this coming season. Not sure Ebo would have been to Nnanna's level that season, but would have helped. Kane will have to learn on the job quickly.

Obelix · Jun 14, 2018

IlliniinIowa said:
I keep thinking after every season that it couldn't possibly get worse. And yet somehow it does. So sad seeing where this once mighty program has fallen....

We have been irrelevant in the last 12 years, but I do not believe the program was a dumpster fire as many claim. We were an NCAA bubble/NIT team pretty much the entire Groce era. Now, quite a few try to sugarcoat things and say "we all knew" that the program was a dumpster fire, so last year was expected, it should have been expected to take 3-4 years to get back to NCAA, yada, yada, yada.

I looked at the 2017-18 prediction poll right before season started (before the EIU game), and 75% were claiming NCAA, mid-90% (90%+) at least NIT. So no, I do not buy the "we all knew" argument.

I coach and meet/interact with coaches at all levels. I honestly believe that there are many very good coaches out there. I think BU is one of them. But unless the overall talent gets upgraded without obvious positional gaps, I do not believe in magic. We may hit special team chemistry once in a while as different teams do every year, but to become consistently B1G competitors, we need an overall talent upgrade. It does not mean that some of the players are not talented, but other teams have those. It is the overall talent level.

So personally, I think it is simple. BU gets the talent, he succeeds. If he doesn't, I do not believe in the overall magic of consistently outcoaching and outsysteming the rest of the B1G.

foby · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
We have been irrelevant in the last 12 years, but I do not believe the program was a dumpster fire as many claim.

UI being irrelevant for 12 years feels more like the towering inferno to most fans.

RIVERCITYCHIEF · Jun 14, 2018

GolfFan1 said:
Terrance Shannon 6'6" wing of Mac Irvin Fire just finished a visit to Louisville and received an offer. He plans to visit Illini the 24th. He and Five Star Kahlil Whitney are good friends. Illini lead for the services of Whitney. You guys are living in the past. Underwood after his first year on the job signed the BEST player in the state Ayo Dosumnu. They got a true 7 footer and a top 20 class in the Nation. How can you say recruiting is down. I look for a good year this year from the Illini. This team will have the best 3 guards since Deron, Dee and Luther. They have a 4 (Kipper) that is the same size as Roger Powell. Center position could be as good or better than Augustine. Remember the 05 team were frosh once too. The bench is much stronger with Aaron Jordan, DaMonte Williams, Tevian Jones,Alan Griffin, Georgi B. If Underwood is as good a coach as we believe him to be. 2014 COach of the year at Stephen F. Austin. We could suprise a lot of players:thumb:

Dont forget a Jr in Feliz who I feel will play a lot and provide some leadership.

Peoria Illini · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
We have been irrelevant in the last 12 years, but I do not believe the program was a dumpster fire as many claim. We were an NCAA bubble/NIT team pretty much the entire Groce era. Now, quite a few try to sugarcoat things and say "we all knew" that the program was a dumpster fire, so last year was expected, it should have been expected to take 3-4 years to get back to NCAA, yada, yada, yada.

I looked at the 2017-18 prediction poll right before season started (before the EIU game), and 75% were claiming NCAA, mid-90% (90%+) at least NIT. So no, I do not buy the "we all knew" argument.

I coach and meet/interact with coaches at all levels. I honestly believe that there are many very good coaches out there. I think BU is one of them. But unless the overall talent gets upgraded without obvious positional gaps, I do not believe in magic. We may hit special team chemistry once in a while as different teams do every year, but to become consistently B1G competitors, we need an overall talent upgrade. It does not mean that some of the players are not talented, but other teams have those. It is the overall talent level.

So personally, I think it is simple. BU gets the talent, he succeeds. If he doesn't, I do not believe in the overall magic of consistently outcoaching and outsysteming the rest of the B1G.

Obelix,

Do you think BU's coaching/system is an upgrade over Groces's coaching/system? Or do you think we would have been better off sticking with JG?

And do you think that Bielein outcoaches and outsystems the B1G? Or do you think his talent is what carries him?

Second and Chalmers · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
I do not believe the program was a dumpster fire as many claim.

BU gets the talent, he succeeds.

I'm a bit confused. Did we have the talent to succeed over the past, say, 5 years or didn't we? Leave the one injury-ravaged season out of it.

My answer is an unequivocal yes.

Illiniguy13 · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
I'm a bit confused. Did we have the talent to succeed over the past, say, 5 years or didn't we? Leave the one injury-ravaged season out of it.

My answer is an unequivocal yes.

We certainly had positional gaps.

Second and Chalmers · Jun 14, 2018

Illiniguy13 said:
We certainly had positional gaps.

Not like we do now.

Obelix · Jun 14, 2018

Peoria Illini said:
Obelix, Do you think BU's coaching/system is an upgrade over Groces's coaching/system? Or do you think we would have been better off sticking with JG?

These are two different questions. From a personal coaching perspective, I like motion and motion spread offense, and attacking basketball. So I like the system, but as I said, I do not believe just in the magic of systems. It is a matter of upgrading the talent to run it at a B1G level. I also believe that if you get the talent, you can also perform and get results running other systems (different than BU) that I may like less. There are definitely many good coaches out there running different systems effectively.

As far as Groce/BU it is an irrelevant comparison. Coaches as UI get hired to elevate a program. If they fail to do that, you have to move on. Even if BU ends up worse than Groce (and we do not know that), it does not mean that keeping Groce for a much long time was the answer, it just means that they both failed. Or that the coaching choices we made (as UI) were not the best ones.

And do you think that Bielein outcoaches and outsystems the B1G? Or do you think his talent is what carries him?

I think Beilein is one of the better coaches that gets the most of his players and Michigan has been the right place for him. He got more at Michigan IMO than WVU. But I think Beilein got the benefit of the talent as well, not just system and development. Trey Burke, for example, was fantastic out of he gate, so it is not that Beilein developed him in 2 pre-season months.

While I definitely believe that there is correlation with rankings and talent (especially at higher tiers), that does not mean that you can't have lower ranked players who succeed and prove talented. Just that the chances are much lower. Groce deserves credit for Frazier, although it is not that Frazier was very low ranked. IMO Beilein has proven to have a good eye for talent, not just system. BU so far has not (at least based on recruits so far), but if he does, he will definitely deserve credit. But has not happened yet.

Second and Chalmers · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
Even if BU ends up worse than Groce (and we do not know that), it does not mean that keeping Groce for a much long time was the answer

Bingo :thumb:

Obelix · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
I'm a bit confused. Did we have the talent to succeed over the past, say, 5 years or didn't we? Leave the one injury-ravaged season out of it.

My answer is an unequivocal yes.

No, I do not believe so. I have always said that other than 2010-11, the overall talent level has not been there. I think Groce overachieved in his first season, hit that team chemistry. The rest, he failed to elevate the program, but it was not that he had very good overall talent. I criticized his recruiting, especially his inability to recruit at PG/C. I thought his last class of Frazier and Tilmon was his best, but... a little too late. Too many positional gaps for too long.

As someone mentioned, Groce's 2nd year, 3 returning players + Rice. We compete for NCAA birth, make the NIT. Now fans say wow, only 3 returning players, not bad.

Overall, the Groce era is NCAA bubble/NIT. Not a dumpster fire by any means IMO, but failed to elevate the program. If BU succeeds, he has to do better than that, not just get there again. JMO.

Second and Chalmers · Jun 14, 2018

Obelix said:
As someone mentioned, Groce's 2nd year, 3 returning players + Rice. We compete for NCAA birth, make the NIT. Now fans say wow, only 3 returning players, not bad.

Overall, the Groce era is NCAA bubble/NIT. Not a dumpster fire by any means IMO, but failed to elevate the program. If BU succeeds, he has to do better than that, not just get there again. JMO.

I take your point and I see the distinction you're making between success/NCAA bubble/genuine badness.

I guess I think more about Groce's 3rd year. Looking back on their careers in college basketball, taking a team with Ray Rice, Malcolm Hill, Leron Black, Kendrick Nunn and Nnanna Egwu and missing the tournament is really quite an amazing failure. Iowa got a 7 seed that year without nearly as much.

Groce's resume had a Tienanmen Square's worth of red flags that he might be capable of that kind of coaching butchery. Underwood's is just the opposite. So I think we're united in a belief that if Underwood gets a coherent roster and some time to work with them in a system (and, perhaps, a staff capable of assisting him in that), that we should be optimistic for good things.

Obelix · Jun 14, 2018

Second and Chalmers said:
I take your point and I see the distinction you're making between success/NCAA bubble/genuine badness.

I guess I think more about Groce's 3rd year. Looking back on their careers in college basketball, taking a team with Ray Rice, Malcolm Hill, Leron Black, Kendrick Nunn and Nnanna Egwu and missing the tournament is really quite an amazing failure. Iowa got a 7 seed that year without nearly as much.

I think that is probably, as a fan, the season that left a little sour taste, but again, I do not believe that the overall talent was there and independent observers saw an NCAA tournament team. Even if some fans believe that Groce got a little less, it probably washes out with Groce's first year when he got a little more.

Out of curiosity, I researched where B1G pre-season media poll ranked the Illini that year:

1, UW (378 points) ... all 27 first-place votes
2, Ohio State (322) ... voted as high as second and as low as fifth
3, Michigan State (305) ... voted as high as second and as low as seventh
4, Nebraska (299) ... voted as high as second and as low as seventh
5, Michigan (286) ... voted as high as second and as low as seventh
6, Minnesota (226) ... voted as high as third and as low as 11th.
7, Iowa (214) ... voted as high as fourth and as low as 11th.
8, Illinois (196) ... voted as high as fourth and as low as 11th.
9, Indiana (163) ... vote as high as sixth and as low as 12th.
10, Maryland (162) ... voted as high as fourth and as low as 11th.
11, Purdue (95) ... voted anywhere between ninth and 13th.
12, Penn State (84) ... voted anywhere between ninth and 13th.
13, Northwestern (78) ... voted anywhere between 10th and 13th.
14, Rutgers (27) ... all last-place votes

https://www.buckys5thquarter.com/20...-15-big-ten-basketball-poll-ranking-preseason

Picked eighth is not really a sure NCAA tournament team, more an NCAA bubble/NIT team.

Bottom line though is that Groce was hired to elevate the program and failed to do so.

Illini Basketball 2018-2019

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