Illini Basketball 2021-2022

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#402      
Come on now. Really? Yes. Those things are his main role. But for CoHawk’s development playing in game situations as a 3 will be huge.

Will he exclusively play as a 3, no. Should he play the 3 in some lineups, especially before conference season, yes. Why? Because I don’t want to be in the cellar anymore. And we are at our best when we have NBA players on our team. Malcom Hill, fantastic player but not quite NBA level and we couldn’t get over the hump. Ayo Dosunmu, pro, Andre Curbelo, pro, (we have a literal case study this season on our staff’s player development with) Kofi Cockburn, pro, Giorgi Bezhanishvili, pro?

Hawkins has potential, so why not maximize it?
I’m still trying to figure out why you think he would play SF in the NBA at 6’10”
 
#403      
South Carolina
It is not just "some posters" who fantasize this way. Lou Henson visited the Law School during the 1978-79 preseason and spent a fair amount of time thinking out loud about putting Derek Holcomb and James (? not sure of his first name) Griffin on the floor together. I don't think he ever did so, and if he did it was not for a great length of time, but he thought putting the biggest possible line-up together was an intriguing idea.
Nice reference to "The Incredible Holc" and "Pinhead"!
 
#404      
It is not just "some posters" who fantasize this way. Lou Henson visited the Law School during the 1978-79 preseason and spent a fair amount of time thinking out loud about putting Derek Holcomb and James (? not sure of his first name) Griffin on the floor together. I don't think he ever did so, and if he did it was not for a great length of time, but he thought putting the biggest possible line-up together was an intriguing idea.
So let’s throw hawk at the 2 and add Lieb in. Now THATs the biggest possible lineup.

Every coach will talk about playing a taller lineup - see BU talking about playing Giorgi and Kofi together last year - and I admitted that I’m sure if what he sees in practice suggests it would work, he may give it a try, especially if some guards get into foul trouble. What I said from the start is that I don’t see it happening. You can list any 5 players with the clause “if BU likes seeing it in practice”. If Curbelo at the 5 looks good in practice I’m sure he’d try it in a game. But it won’t look good in practice and neither will CH at the 3.
 
#405      
Winged Warrior
Seems to me we left the cellar far behind last year. Most B10 regular season wins. Won the BTT. #1 seed. That ain't the cellar. And I don't see the cellar in the near future with the recruits coming in. Ayo is gone and that is a big hole to fill. But we return a possible future NBA PG, a C who has a legit shot at NPOY, and more wings than KFC. What this team really lacked last year was a legit stretch 4. Who is a better fit for that role than CoHawk? At some point the future becomes now. I say let's go for a NC now! This may be last time we ever see a players like Kofi and AC on the roster at the same time. Ask a Cubs fan if he would sacrifice 2016 for a guarantee to never see the cellar again.

Maybe he's talking about a different cellar?

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#406      
Does anyone else remember a couple of games during this last season when we had a guy (i think it was curbelo) just staying around the free throw line during offensive possesions? It seemed to work well, but then we stopped doing it and i didn't know why...
Grandison spent some time also, we broke up the zone easily.
 
#407      
Does anyone else remember a couple of games during this last season when we had a guy (i think it was curbelo) just staying around the free throw line during offensive possesions? It seemed to work well, but then we stopped doing it and i didn't know why...
It’s largely based on what defense you are facing.
 
#408      
Come on now. Really? Yes. Those things are his main role. But for CoHawk’s development playing in game situations as a 3 will be huge.

Will he exclusively play as a 3, no. Should he play the 3 in some lineups, especially before conference season, yes. Why? Because I don’t want to be in the cellar anymore. And we are at our best when we have NBA players on our team. Malcom Hill, fantastic player but not quite NBA level and we couldn’t get over the hump. Ayo Dosunmu, pro, Andre Curbelo, pro, (we have a literal case study this season on our staff’s player development with) Kofi Cockburn, pro, Giorgi Bezhanishvili, pro?

Hawkins has potential, so why not maximize it?
Why is it everyone acts as if CH is great or even good shooter yet. He played and has not shown anything like that yet. Practice and in games are 2 different things. He can and should improve on his 23%from three which is worse than what GB shot 26%in his time here and CHs 35% from the field. He may and must improve to be a threat from outside. This NBA talk is i bit premature. I want to see it online the State Farm Center first.
 
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#409      
Urbana, IL
Why is it everyone acts as if CH is great or even good shooter yet. He played and has not shown anything like that yet. Practice and in games are 2 different things. He can and should improve on his 23%from three which is worse than what GB shot 26%in his time here and CHs 35% from the field. He may and must improve to be a threat from outside. This NBA talk is i bit premature. I want to see it online the State Farm Center first.
Well, I am sure the insiders on this board can relay this to their sources and they can inform the team of what you want.
 
#411      
Champaign
Why is it everyone acts as if CH is great or even good shooter yet. He played and has not shown anything like that yet. Practice and in games are 2 different things. He can and should improve on his 23%from three which is worse than what GB shot 26%in his time here and CHs 35% from the field. He may and must improve to be a threat from outside. This NBA talk is i bit premature. I want to see it online the State Farm Center first.

Percentages are not a good measure when he only took 29 shots total all season and 13 3s.
 
#412      
chitown
I’m still trying to figure out why you think he would play SF in the NBA at 6’10”
The same was 6'11 Michael Porter plays SF for the Nuggets
The same way 6'10 Ben Simmons plays PG for the Sixers

Based on his height ,weight ,skill level he projects as a prototypical stretch 4 with SF abilities or a 4/3 who can also be used as a small ball 5 because of his defensive instincts.

In college his height doesn't really dictate where he has to play his skill level does and I could easily see him this year playing the four spot next to Kofi and when Kofi moves on next season Hawkins plays all across the frontline with Payne being the post anchor.
 
#414      
It is not just "some posters" who fantasize this way. Lou Henson visited the Law School during the 1978-79 preseason and spent a fair amount of time thinking out loud about putting Derek Holcomb and James (? not sure of his first name) Griffin on the floor together. I don't think he ever did so, and if he did it was not for a great length of time, but he thought putting the biggest possible line-up together was an intriguing idea.
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Different era and a different game in many respects, but certainly understand Lou considering that given the way the game was being played.
 
#415      
Zone defense is good against one dimensional teams or to cover up for a mismatch. If Omar Payne and Coleman Hawkins are studs on offense, it would make sense. Otherwise there is very little reason to think you can win the championship running primarily a zone defense. There are way too many ways to beat a zone. The best is a true hybrid with help defense and rotations - but that’s honestly just ACTUAL man defense.

Zone is an easy way to beat mediocre teams. It works for Syracuse and worked for Oregon state against teams that didn’t have a good answer, but there’s a reason those teams don’t win it all. Good teams beat zone defenses.
Obviously helps having an all-timer on your team for offense, but Syracuse did "win it all," so you can't say it absolutely won't work deep in the tourney. I generally agree with you that you don't want to be dependent on just on zone. Best to be able to play both. But at the college level, there are plenty of teams that don't have the skills -- particularly shooting -- to punish you if you do play zone, so it's worth having in your bag if your other scheme is being eaten up.

Also, my comment was outside the context of the whole 'play Payne at the 4' discussion. I'm not a fan of that possibility, unless it's a very specific situation like there's 10 seconds left and you're up 1 and the other team has the ball.
 
#416      
Percentages are not a good measure when he only took 29 shots total all season and 13 3s.
30 shots may not be 100 but you have a damn good idea what to expect and its not 40%.You realize when you see Jacob and Damonte shoot CH was behind them at the 4 and likely will be again.
 
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#417      
I’m still trying to figure out why you think he would play SF in the NBA at 6’10”
NBA talk is a good goal but right now I've seen nothing to think its realistic.

Watch TBT and Daum. Daum is a very very good player as are so many others and he isn't in the NBA. A very high goal for any of our 4s is to be the player he is.
 
#418      
NBA talk is a good goal but right now I've seen nothing to think its realistic.

Watch TBT and Daum. Daum is a very very good player as are so many others and he isn't in the NBA. A very high goal for any of our 4s is to be the player he is.
I’m not saying nba talk makes sense. I’m just saying the goal for all the players is surely NBA, but there’s no reason to think CH needs to play the 3 to improve his stock. If he plays as a stretch 4 and performs and shows he can play at a high level, he will get drafted to play the 4. If he were 6’8” I could understand the notion of needing SF minutes to show NBA potential, but he’s 6’10”
 
#419      
Well, I am sure the insiders on this board can relay this to their sources and they can inform the team of what you want.
Well I've seen it from Jacob and DMW. Dont you think and BU want to see it too? He was 4th in the rotation at the 4 last year and 2 of those guys are back and we have added a 4th that will play it at times too. If he doesn't show it in games don't expect much PT do you?
 
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#420      
The same was 6'11 Michael Porter plays SF for the Nuggets
The same way 6'10 Ben Simmons plays PG for the Sixers

Based on his height ,weight ,skill level he projects as a prototypical stretch 4 with SF abilities or a 4/3 who can also be used as a small ball 5 because of his defensive instincts.

In college his height doesn't really dictate where he has to play his skill level does and I could easily see him this year playing the four spot next to Kofi and when Kofi moves on next season Hawkins plays all across the frontline with Payne being the post anchor.
I agree. I just don’t think we need to suggest forcing him into the 3 in order to improve his nba draft stock. Simmons did not play PG at LSU. Porter didn’t play much in college so hard to really compare his positional play. Those are also two extremely highly touted players and it is ludicrous to compare them to CH.

I’m not saying that tall players CANT play SF or a guard, simply that at 6’10” he can play pretty much anywhere. He doesn’t HAVE to play like a 3 if his talents are better at the 4. He doesn’t have to show some ability to run an offense. If he were like 6’3” or under, he’d need to show handles/shooting. He’s 6’10”. If his skills fit as a 4, there’s zero reason to force him into the SF position.
 
#421      
Obviously helps having an all-timer on your team for offense, but Syracuse did "win it all," so you can't say it absolutely won't work deep in the tourney. I generally agree with you that you don't want to be dependent on just on zone. Best to be able to play both. But at the college level, there are plenty of teams that don't have the skills -- particularly shooting -- to punish you if you do play zone, so it's worth having in your bag if your other scheme is being eaten up.

Also, my comment was outside the context of the whole 'play Payne at the 4' discussion. I'm not a fan of that possibility, unless it's a very specific situation like there's 10 seconds left and you're up 1 and the other team has the ball.
To be fair - Payne at the 4 isn’t the WORST idea for short spurts if Payne is playing well and especially if going against a 1-3-1 zone or something, BUT I wouldn’t throw CH in at the 3 in that lineup, I’d have him on the bench ready to sub in for Kofi (and slide Payne to 5) or Payne
 
#422      
Obviously helps having an all-timer on your team for offense, but Syracuse did "win it all," so you can't say it absolutely won't work deep in the tourney. I generally agree with you that you don't want to be dependent on just on zone. Best to be able to play both. But at the college level, there are plenty of teams that don't have the skills -- particularly shooting -- to punish you if you do play zone, so it's worth having in your bag if your other scheme is being eaten up.

Also, my comment was outside the context of the whole 'play Payne at the 4' discussion. I'm not a fan of that possibility, unless it's a very specific situation like there's 10 seconds left and you're up 1 and the other team has the ball.
And while I admit that Syracuse won it all running a 2-3 (MSU did as well with magic btw), it’s been almost 20 years since it’s happened and both of those teams had incredible offenses.

With the way teams shoot the 3 in today’s game, the 2-3 zone in particular struggles (when Oklahoma lost to Syracuse in 2003, they were 5-28 from deep). Hard to imagine s top tier team shooting that poorly in today’s environment.

There are situations and lineups that work best for different defenses, but specifically putting out a worse in order to better fit a particular defense does not seem like a way to be successful. If CH OP and KC in one lineup is the BEST offensive lineup, I could see the argument, but I don’t see it making sense with AC, AH, TF, and AP on the roster (ignoring the freshman, JG and DW who I still believe averages double digits this year)
 
#423      
With Kofi back and Tim Anderson hired we've now resorted to hand-wringing over what position Coleman Hawkins will play and whether to run a 2-3 zone to win the championship, both of which we rarely saw last year.
 
#425      
The same was 6'11 Michael Porter plays SF for the Nuggets
The same way 6'10 Ben Simmons plays PG for the Sixers

Based on his height ,weight ,skill level he projects as a prototypical stretch 4 with SF abilities or a 4/3 who can also be used as a small ball 5 because of his defensive instincts.

In college his height doesn't really dictate where he has to play his skill level does and I could easily see him this year playing the four spot next to Kofi and when Kofi moves on next season Hawkins plays all across the frontline with Payne being the post anchor.
I don't care if he's 6'10 or 6'4. He doesn't have the skills to play the "3." And no coach is going to play him there hoping he somehow develops those skills.

And why are you comparing him to two superbly talented NBA players? I like Hawkins' potential to play for us, but he's not even in the same stratosphere as the two guys you mention.
 
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