Illini Football 2018

TownieMatt said:

Hard to disgree with any of it really. I do think our fanbase is putting too much into the fact they we played so many young players. Just because a kid is playing while he's a freshman doesn't mean he's going to turn out to be a good player.

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It really depends on what positions/players you are talking about. Chances are, if a guy is getting a lot of playing time as a WR, RB or CB as a Freshman and isn't performing well, experience isn't going to change a whole lot since those positions are largely dependent on athleticism. Experience, being coached up, S&C just isn't going to change that much. On the flip side, you can say the Freshmen that excelled at these positions have a ceiling and aren't going to get that much better than what we already saw.

If you're talking about developmental positions like OL, DL and QB, experience in addition to S&C can make a big difference. A QB may or may not pan out but experience in addition to added strength can only improve what we see on the LOS.

For guys at other positions, it's hard to tell. I haven't given up on guys like Degroot and Knight but they really didn't do anything last year that made you think that they will be above average B1G players in the future. They may get better, they may end up as depth players or they could end up transferring after getting passed up by other players.

The staff has already told us that they've given up on Mondesir since they are moving him to WDE when we're already thin at LB. He'll probably get buried on the depth chart and end up as being nothing better than an ST player if he sticks around.

I'm not picking on Mondesir here. Not everyone in a 25+ player class is going to work out or is even meant to be more than a depth player. We'll see what strides the 2017 class can make this year.

The biggest issues heading into this season are the QB and the OL. We're not going to win games if the offense continues to be in the 120s in the FBS. If R. Smith can even get us into the 90s this year, that difference will make a difference in the W-L column. Imagine just having a slightly better offense against MN and IU last year. Those were winnable games with a competent QB/offense. Instead, once we were down by 7+ points it felt like the games were over since this offense gave us no hope.

I saw enough out of the defense last year to at least make me believe that we can at least get to the point where we're average on that side of the ball in comparison to other teams in the conference.

Lovie's biggest mistake to date is handing the keys to the offense over to someone that was so grossly incompetent that he's now an intern at Missouri. If he didn't get the R. Smith hire right then he will not succeed here.

ILLinoize92 said:

https://athlonsports.com/college-fo...s-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2018

Thoughts on what was said anonymously about us? It's hard to disagree with most of it.

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Can anyone verify the authenticity of this? Anonymous or not, the comments are very unprofessional. Some sound quite juvenile to me... ah - it says "comes from coaching staffs" I could see a lower level coach saying some of this.

VAIllini35 said:

Can anyone verify the authenticity of this? Anonymous or not, the comments are very unprofessional. Some sound quite juvenile to me... ah - it says "comes from coaching staffs" I could see a lower level coach saying some of this.

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I doubt they're from head coaches, who most likely have neither the patience or inclination to participate in something like this. For the reporter it doesn't matter since it's all unsourced anyway.

VAIllini35 said:

Can anyone verify the authenticity of this? Anonymous or not, the comments are very unprofessional. Some sound quite juvenile to me... ah - it says "comes from coaching staffs" I could see a lower level coach saying some of this.

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I don't know about the validity of it, but it's not all that much different from what was said last year:

https://athlonsports.com/college-fo...s-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2017

ILLinoize92 said:

https://athlonsports.com/college-fo...s-talk-anonymously-about-conference-foes-2018

Thoughts on what was said anonymously about us? It's hard to disagree with most of it.

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Honestly, I think most of it is completely reasonable.

I especially enjoyed:

They don’t have a quarterback, they are terrible on defense and they are one of the worst teams we’ve played in the last six or seven years. At one point last year, I remember watching film on them and thinking this team looks completely disinterested.

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That was pretty much the tale of our team for the past 5 years. I suppose it's not fair to throw Lunt under the bus. He was a guy with a great arm but slow as molasses, and with no O-line to speak of, was totally wasted for us.

FT35 said:

Lovie's biggest mistake to date is handing the keys to the offense over to someone that was so grossly incompetent that he's now an intern at Missouri.

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Charlie Weiss was a sterling offensive coordinator for Bill Bellicheck at New England. Took a golden jump to Notre Dame. Got banished to Kansas. Well, our previous OC had a darn good pedigree and I doubt if anyone on this board doubted him before he got canned. We had no idea he did not relate to his players nor recruit well.

Verified Insider said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I thought the very same thing about the Lovie hire. To me, it seemed like a hire designed to generate headlines and some positive vibes around the university rather than a hire designed to institute stability in the football program.

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Well, I think you have to remember a couple of things

1. Bill Cubit on a short term contract given out by an interim administration was seen by Whitman as a really, really bad, festering situation and Lovie offered the chance to move on from that in March of 2016 rather than November/December.

2. With the way the Tim Beckman became a dead man walking literally within two games, one of which was a win, I think Whitman viewed those big headlines and positives vibes as precisely what was required in order to create stability in the football program. I think he's clearly right on that, I cannot imagine this level of support for another coaching staff after a 5-19 start.

It was a big brightening of the horizons at the time. I think justifiably so. It might not end up working out, and I think the handicap of being hired in March continues to reveal itself as more and more consequential, but I don't think it would be accurate to look back at it as the wrong decision.

Second and Chalmers said:

Well, I think you have to remember a couple of things

1. Bill Cubit on a short term contract given out by an interim administration was seen by Whitman as a really, really bad, festering situation and Lovie offered the chance to move on from that in March of 2016 rather than November/December.

2. With the way the Tim Beckman became a dead man walking literally within two games, one of which was a win, I think Whitman viewed those big headlines and positives vibes as precisely what was required in order to create stability in the football program. I think he's clearly right on that, I cannot imagine this level of support for another coaching staff after a 5-19 start.

It was a big brightening of the horizons at the time. I think justifiably so. It might not end up working out, and I think the handicap of being hired in March continues to reveal itself as more and more consequential, but I don't think it would be accurate to look back at it as the wrong decision.

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Yes, pulling the plug was absolutely the right call. Attendant positive PR aside, Whitman was fully cognizant that the football program required a total rebuild and the results in the first few seasons were going to be poor.

FT35 said:

Lovie's biggest mistake to date is handing the keys to the offense over to someone that was so grossly incompetent that he's now an intern at Missouri. If he didn't get the R. Smith hire right then he will not succeed here.

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Reading this, I just felt like it was in big, bold flashing lights. Sounds exactly right

The way the quotes are set up in the article give it a cascade effect that turned my stomach. But then I realized each paragraph is a different person speaking, and that the bitter ones realistically are not from a head coach....well, makes more sense.

First off, I think the first quote is completely wrong. Total BS. Its like saying, "Sure this guy was great on Varsity, but he'll struggle against the JV's." Tell me exactly what skill from being an NFL coach doesn't translate to college? (Full disclosure; I'm a former management consultant, so I'm keenly aware of how subtle differences in cultures and organizations make a big impact on results. Buts that's where PROCESS comes in.) If Lovie has an open mind, and the evidence to date is that he does, he will have been making an active effort to identify the areas where the 'Lovie NFL-way' won't translate to college, and adopt best practices to cover those gaps. Not really rocket science.

So I reject the first quote entirely as some form of anti-Lovie smear that he looks forward to proving wrong. (And that I look forward to watching proven wrong!)

The rest touches on truths we've already seen Lovie respond to, (e.g. when the seniors weren't getting it done [i.e. looked disinterested], he went to the freshmen, when the OC wasn't getting it done, he changed OC's. Not knee-jerk, but after allowing a full opportunity for success.) To me, all his actions speak to Lovie being a results-driven coach who is clear-eyed about the process. That's why I'm really confident he is going to succeed.

FT35 nailed it above; how do you have a better record when you lack a QB, O-line, and have an offense in the 120's? It's not happening. And Lovie has attacked those needs as aggressively as possible. This year the OL will be better, and at least one QB should be capable of a completion percentage above 50%. Nirvana if they cross 60%. If the Rod Smith hire was a good hire, we'll definitely see improved offense this year.

This year we should see better play, regardless of results. Next year we should see improved results.

Seriously, I think other coaches have figured that this is a great way for negative recruiting with no repercussions. Now I’m not sure if they think we are much of a threat...but maybe they are a little worried about what Illinois football COULD become if it takes off.

Think about it. A head coach could tell one of his assistants (or grad students even??) to say something bad about Illinois (or any other school). Maybe that “thing” is what he’s been telling a particular recruit to get him to shy away from the Illini.

Then, the head coach can go to that recruit and say, “look even OTHER big ten coaches think this about Illinois.” (Which is technically true)

But the recruit has no idea if it’s a lowly assistant or Urban Meyer that said it. So there is a chance that the comment gets extra validation and the recruit may not pick a school because of it.

Sort of a reach maybe...but if one school has a particular pitch that seems to be working on a recruit you want, this would be an easy way to try and destroy the credibility of that pitch.

Coaches who I think would do this: Fleck, Pout Fitzgerald, Franklin, and Brohm.

Joel Goodson said:

Whitman was fully cognizant that the football program required a total rebuild and the results in the first few seasons were going to be poor.

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Not to open up a can of worms, but I think there might be some truth to this, that Whitman's vision had a role to play in each of our new coaches pulling out what they inherited root-and-branch. And if that is true, I hope he has learned his lesson and won't encourage that again.

Second and Chalmers said:

Not to open up a can of worms, but I think there might be some truth to this, that Whitman's vision had a role to play in each of our new coaches pulling out what they inherited root-and-branch. And if that is true, I hope he has learned his lesson and won't encourage that again.

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Let's see the results first. It absolutely is painful now, if the football program grows to a 7 win floor team in 3 years, with occasional conference championship every decade, it would have been worth it. And, if the bball team is back to being a protected seed (top 4) most years in the tourney with some final fours sprinkled in, and finally that championship (on the court, no offense to the 1914 team), it will be worth it, in my mind.

Second and Chalmers said:

Not to open up a can of worms, but I think there might be some truth to this, that Whitman's vision had a role to play in each of our new coaches pulling out what they inherited root-and-branch. And if that is true, I hope he has learned his lesson and won't encourage that again.

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The poor culture might have been more of an issue than we're aware of, which called for a total tear down to hasten the rebuild.

Illwinsagain said:

Let's see the results first. It absolutely is painful now, if the football program grows to a 7 win floor team in 3 years, with occasional conference championship every decade, it would have been worth it. And, if the bball team is back to being a protected seed (top 4) most years in the tourney with some final fours sprinkled in, and finally that championship (on the court, no offense to the 1914 team), it will be worth it, in my mind.

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Of course it will have been worth it, but does that mean the demolitions were the right decision? Should it be something that other schools try to emulate? Those are very different questions.

GForce said:

The poor culture might have been more of an issue than we're aware of, which called for a total tear down to hasten the rebuild.

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In both football and basketball? It's possible. I can't claim to know. Nor can I claim to know that Whitman really pushed the idea as opposed to Lovie and Underwood coming to the same conclusion independently of one another.

But I just think the wholesale destruction of the inherited roster is a needlessly destructive way to go about things, I am very dubious that it actually improves a "rebuild" down the line, and I find the general fetishization of "rebuilding" in sports that is all the rage these days to be misguided and gross and with surprisingly weak evidence in support.

Second and Chalmers said:

Of course it will have been worth it, but does that mean the demolitions were the right decision? Should it be something that other schools try to emulate? Those are very different questions.



In both football and basketball? It's possible. I can't claim to know. Nor can I claim to know that Whitman really pushed the idea as opposed to Lovie and Underwood coming to the same conclusion independently of one another.

But I just think the wholesale destruction of the inherited roster is a needlessly destructive way to go about things, I am very dubious that it actually improves a "rebuild" down the line, and I find the general fetishization of "rebuilding" in sports that is all the rage these days to be misguided and gross and with surprisingly weak evidence in support.

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In pro sports, there is an obvious benefit to taking, to getting a better draft position. In college sports, it is more painful, because that does not exist. Only more playing time. I don't like the tear down method, but understand that to improve things, sometimes it's a can of paint, sometimes, tear down to the studs and others, down to the foundation. Analogy over.

Illwinsagain said:

In college sports, it is more painful, because that does not exist. Only more playing time. I don't like the tear down method, but understand that to improve things, sometimes it's a can of paint, sometimes, tear down to the studs and others, down to the foundation. Analogy over.

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For me, getting buy in and development from the players you inherit, and building a culture where playing time and leadership are earned, not just given to the new arrivals, and in the meantime remaining as competitive as possible and treating winning as important, that's the best route to future success.

I know a lot of what's said about the situations they inherited and the best path forward is just happytalk about our two new coaches, and that's fine. But to the extent it gets twisted into an actual view of what the best way to improve a down-on-its-luck program is, I think it's very misguided.

No B1G coach is planting quotes in an article to negative recruit against Illinois. None of them need to negative recruit against us. And if they want to, they just have to print out the standings for the past 5 years.

Read the other quotes - significantly less bad mouthing of the better teams that are recruiting against each other. We got the bad quotes because we're a bad team.

Compare the Illinois comments to the other 13. There is no anti-Illinois conspiracy. That’s the genuine perception from the B1G assistants interviewed.

If agendas were in play, you’d see more negativity for other teams.

Just have to compete, win, and break that perception. Bulletin board material.

I'm pretty sure others teams figure out that the Illini are playing a bunch of freshmen while they're scouting. And Rutgers has won 4, 2 and 4 games the last 3 seasons. But Rutgers gets comments on how Ash is "making headway" and how impressed they were that they even won 4 games with their roster.

It's an African-American coach with SB experience against a bunch of old white men. What's happening with Trinity and Bishop Dunne is exactly what they're scared of.

Also, calling the defense terrible when it was probably the only positive from last season reads like straight propaganda.

Just remember, coaches anonymous opinions have close to roughly 100% predictive validity. So it’s like there is no escaping these predictions

from a pool of 130 assistant coaches, 5 quotes. could have just as easily been 5 totally innocuous coach-speak statements about anything else. i am certain you can find many a bad take in hindsight among the anonymous quotes of yesteryear.

it's easy to kick down. there are few better teams to bet against than ours. doesn't mean we aren't getting better. hope and low expectations don't have to be incompatible. i still think we're a year and new facilities out from really getting the ball rolling, but hey, it's college football, anything can happen, and maybe we're due for some early surprises