Illinois 24, Virginia 3 Postgame

the national · Sep 12, 2022

Bbuck21 said:
My wife and I both graduated from UofI. My son attended Stevenson HS. He had a 4.0+ GPA, a 32 ACT, played HS sports and worked at a kids summer camp for years. His dream school was Illinois. He of course had been on campus with us enough over the years for football and BB games. When he walked on the quad the day of the student visit day, he couldn't stop smiling. Illinois said they would give him no credit for the AP classes and tests he passed. He was "wait listed". When he received his "congratulations", he had already decided on another college that gave him out of state scholarships that lowered his tuition to less than in state tuition. He also received 11 credit hours for his AP classes. Which allowed him to double major plus a minor in 4 years and graduated Magna Cum Laude. When he opened that "congratulations" letter from Illinois, instead of being proud and excited he said, "!!!! you!". I was actually very proud of him, because I felt the same way.

I had a similar experience.

Illinivek23 · Sep 12, 2022

the national said:
I had a similar experience.

There are so many kids with great credentials (and interest/desire to come to Champaign) from the larger suburban schools that only so many get accepted. The rest go elsewhere. That's been the case for awhile.

Since less funding is received from the state on a % basis going forward, seems that in-state student "priority" is also becoming less of a thing.

Bbuck21 · Sep 12, 2022

dbeaverfg said:
Pretty sketchy trying to find data but the best place I've seen is the student enrollment page from the Division of Management Information. (https://www.dmi.illinois.edu/stuenr/)

Lots of information that you have to dig through but it does go back th the early 70s/late 60s for some stuff.

Most other schools have data of some sort on their registrar's page.

Thanks for your feedback. I have been finding some bits and pieces, but most are for recent years. The University has a very impressive on line information page that encourages international students to apply. It explains all the assistance (non-financial) they offer, statistics, housing developments, local business catering to international students, etc. to entice them to apply. I am not a biased person, but this kind of rubbed me the wrong way. The current enrollment is almost 25% international. UofI is ranked as the 5th most attractive US college to international students. I believe with these types of numbers along with the college mentality of those that attend UofI, which is driven by getting the most out of a very expensive education, is the reason students are not attending. The total college experience is completely different from what most of remember. It no longer includes football games on Fall Saturdays. Those that do are in the severe minority. We all go through life cycles. I went ot all the games as a student, then had seasons tickets for 10-12 years after that. Then the kids lives and activities on Saturdays became more important. Then working and starting a business made it difficult to give up an entire Saturday to travel 2-3 hours each way for a game. Only did it sporadically. Now retired (at least semi-retired) I am making it back more regularly. I am sure this describes many alumni. Without current students and recent graduates (say 10 years), it is tough to put a lot of people in the stands. But the DIA should be expected to come up with something.

EyeoftheIllini · Sep 12, 2022

dbeaverfg said:
As a comparison just look at UI vs. Ohio State. Fall 2021 enrollment: U of I had 31422 Illinois resident students out of 56257 (55.8%) OSU had 43190 Ohio residents out of 61677 (70%). No wonder it's so easy for them to fill that stadium (even discounting success on the field).

The problem is that there is really very little that DIA can do to remedy this situation. The university and their admission priorities determine everything.

Discounting success? C’mon. In my lifetime OSU has had pretty much sustained success — often of the highest level. But just as important if not more is because Columbus is a relatively large city. The number of OSU alum in the Columbus area is really pretty staggering. Champaign will never have that. Throw the number of large companies here (I live in Columbus) and that it is still the biggest corporate draw for sporting events in town, and you have a perfect storm. The game day experience is also crazy — especially tailgating. Heck a lot of people just tailgate and don’t even go to the game. I’ve probably been to a half dozen tailgate parties and have never stepped foot in the stadium. OSU football a completely different animal than Illinois football and not because they take more in-state students. It is a way of life here, and not just for those who attended the school.

If one wants to argue that as the state’s flagship school that it should take in a higher percentage of in-state students, I can see that. But you don’t do it just in the hopes that it will mean an additional 20k fans in Memorial Stadium six or seven times a year. That’s just silly IMHO. And college is supposed to be a learning and growth experience. I’d argue that a homogeneous student body makes it less so. I also highly doubt that sparse football crowds are because the university doesn’t take “enough” in state students or because of the butt hurt ones that didn’t get in. As others have said, win and improve te game day experience and we’ll see attendance improve.

CHIEEEEEEF! · Sep 12, 2022

cuillini said:
Personally, I miss the war chant (and the Chief). However, if I never see another "wave" at an athletic event I'll be fine.

I wish I could like this 100 times...loved the chant and the Chief!

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

rrillini said:
I completely agree with this. I have three grown children with college degrees from other Illinois universities that are successful, professional, productive Illinois citizens that could not qualify for admittance to the U of I as highschool graduates. In my opinion that is the U of I's loss and the U of I school management is content to sustain that attitude throughout the state.

More for financial reasons than anything else, but UI has expanded their class sizes and remains the most in-state heavy of all the Big Ten schools. Over the past five years or so the ever-escalating crunch on Chicago suburban high school kids has abated somewhat.

But in general this is not a UI-specific thing, this is just a tale of the higher ed industry and the cultural realities of increased competition of college admissions in America.

I'm glad UI has expanded enrollment, that's the right thing to do even if it may be for the "wrong" reasons.

dbeaverfg said:
Pretty sketchy trying to find data but the best place I've seen is the student enrollment page from the Division of Management Information. (https://www.dmi.illinois.edu/stuenr/)

Lots of information that you have to dig through but it does go back th the early 70s/late 60s for some stuff.

Most other schools have data of some sort on their registrar's page.

So just to be clear on a factual point using that data, of 34,942 enrolled undergraduates this fall, 5,312 are international students, so 15%.

In Fall 2014 (chosen because that was the last class before Tim Killeen became UI President who has been public about wanting to increase enrollment) there were 32,579 total undergrads of which 5,332 were international, a bit over 16%.

Not super dramatic change, but one way to say it is that there are now 20 fewer spots for international HS students and nearly 2,500 more spots for domestic HS students.

And just to say it out loud I don't think any of this has anything to do with our football attendance issues.

Battle89 · Sep 12, 2022

bluemountain said:
That is quite a change from when I was in school. As compared UM, UW, IU, etc., UI had a vastly higher proportion of in state students. I think we had one out of state kid in my fraternity and it was unusual to have an out of stater come through rush

Points well taken, but tOSU is probably not the best comparable. Any Ohio high school grad can get into a regional school and then move to Columbus if they remain in good standing. Much lower bar to clear there, basically an in-house juco system.

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

bluemountain said:
That is quite a change from when I was in school. As compared UM, UW, IU, etc., UI had a vastly higher proportion of in state students. I think we had one out of state kid in my fraternity and it was unusual to have an out of stater come through rush

Mixing graduate students into these numbers is a bad methodology. We are talking about high school admissions here.

Illinois has very high numbers of out-of-state and international students among it's graduate enrollment because the lion's share of that is in our globally elite engineering programs. Which has nothing to do with the travails of Little Johnny from Downers Grove South.

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

Here's my anecdotal addition to this convo. I was an out-of-state transfer student that didn't think twice about the state of Illinois, let alone the University, till I stepped foot on campus. And yet, I spend way too much of my free time on this message board, overly invested in the minutia of the athletic department.

I don't think the problem is out-of-state students. I think the issue is the football program has been absolute garbage for way too long. I was lucky enough to be on campus for both the run to the championship game in basketball and the Rose Bowl appearance. That, as much as anything, solidified my eternal fandom.

Success matters. Entertainment matters. This is a massive undertaking that requires more than wins against Wyoming and UVA. It's going to take several years of excitement to convince people this program is actually worth getting invested in. Yes, us message board freaks are excited about BB, but the average person isn't thinking about the football program, yet. The football team needs to give the non-fanatics a reason to take notice. They need to win.

Battle89 · Sep 12, 2022

The Galloping Ghost said:
Here's my anecdotal addition to this convo. I was an out-of-state transfer student that didn't think twice about the state of Illinois, let alone the University, till I stepped foot on campus. And yet, I spend way too much of my free time on this message board, overly invested in the minutia of the athletic department.

I don't think the problem is out-of-state students. I think the issue is the football program has been absolute garbage for way too long. I was lucky enough to be on campus for both the run to the championship game in basketball and the Rose Bowl appearance. That, as much as anything, solidified my eternal fandom.

Success matters. Entertainment matters. This is a massive undertaking that requires more than wins against Wyoming and UVA. It's going to take several years of excitement to convince people this program is actually worth getting invested in. Yes, us message board freaks are excited about BB, but the average person isn't thinking about the football program, yet. The football team needs to give the non-fanatics a reason to take notice. They need to win.

My situation is similar to others above, except the rejection was on our side (responding to multiple posts here Ghost, not just yours).

Wife and I are both grads, and die-hard Illini. That being said, I cannot deny the decades of frustration with athletic results, the increasing tuition, the politics, and the trashing of traditions like the Chief. While I will always support the beloved, there is a long-term bitterness now that was not there 20-30 years ago.

Long story short, both my kids were lucky enough to be accepted at Illinois, but both chose to go elsewhere. With the first it was mostly a financial decision, he was on the fence but the other school gave much more financial assistance. Enough that it made a material impact on the decision. With my second, she just liked another school more.

Sincere apologies if this comes across as some sort of humblebrag ("my kids got in!"), I do not intend it that way. Moreso that the decisions of state lawmakers and University administration have consequences. A generational thing, as has been alluded above.

Fully support the current coaches and AD, go Illini!

chiefini · Sep 12, 2022

bluemountain said:
I've been to games at Clemson, LSU, Alabama, South Carolina (when they were good under Spurrier), most of the Big 10 stadiums and MS was as loud as if not louder than any of them when it was rocking against OSU or UM or Iowa during the 80's. Without the chief and with 15k fewer seats, we will probably never re-create that experience again, even if we get another Mike White. Which is too bad, because MS is an iconic stadium and would be one of the great game day experiences in CFB. Every once in a while I watch this video to remind me what it was like and what we lost.

I was Scott Christensen’s freshman English teacher at Glenbard North High School in 1977. Every year I placed an Illini Football poster and then an Illini basketball poster on the bulletin board in the front of the classroom. After graduating from Illinois in 1974, I would go to each Homecoming and then wear my O&B on the following Monday, telling my students in each of my five classes how great the University of Illinois was. Indoctrination/recruitment at its finest. I can remember Scott, an excellent student and a really good kid, being very interested, and he asked me a ton of questions. You can imagine how thrilled I was when he won the Chief Illiniwek position. I’m biased, but I think he was one of the best Chiefs, ever. I was even able to get an autographed photo after a basketball game. It was so much fun and special being able to witness one of my former students representing my university as its honored symbol so well in front of huge crowds with a winning Illinois team in front of the entire nation. It is my fervent hope that our current Illini can continue to win and can bring back that statewide feeling of pride and awesome atmosphere that packs the stands like they were in 1983.

DaChief4ever · Sep 12, 2022

illinistephen said:
Having ten thousand international students and bringing in five thousand international students last year can't help this either. At these numbers I would question how much acclimation there is to university traditions, let alone American culture. Frankly, it is insulting to the in-state students who don't get in, so no wonder when they go to Iowa or Purdue they have a strong dislike for Illinois. The middle 50% of ACT scores for the engineering college is 33-35, so you know there are good students getting turned away.

Follow the Texas rule of admissions.....All Texas H.S. graduates who are in the top 10%, get automatic admission to Texas Colleges and Universities.

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

Battle89 said:
the decades of frustration with athletic results, the increasing tuition, the politics, and the trashing of traditions like the Chief.

The thing for me about this conversation is that I understand why the search for explanations drifts in this direction, but it seems to ignore the reality that measured in terms of attendance, atmosphere, or lunatic social media following, Illinois Basketball is one of the biggest and most loyal and dedicated fanbases in the entire country, punching way above our weight.

If the explanation doesn't have a way to separate football from basketball, it feels incomplete and inaccurate to me.

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:
The thing for me about this conversation is that I understand why the search for explanations drifts in this direction, but it seems to ignore the reality that measured in terms of attendance, atmosphere, or lunatic social media following, Illinois Basketball is one of the biggest and most loyal and dedicated fanbases in the entire country, punching way above our weight.

If the explanation doesn't have a way to separate football from basketball, it feels incomplete and inaccurate to me.

Ding ding ding. What's the difference between the basketball team and the football team? Sustained periods of success. In-state, out-of-state, international students, the fanbase is there if the team can just freaking become relevant.

dbeaverfg · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:
The thing for me about this conversation is that I understand why the search for explanations drifts in this direction, but it seems to ignore the reality that measured in terms of attendance, atmosphere, or lunatic social media following, Illinois Basketball is one of the biggest and most loyal and dedicated fanbases in the entire country, punching way above our weight.

If the explanation doesn't have a way to separate football from basketball, it feels incomplete and inaccurate to me.

I think Illinois (especially central / southern) is and has always been more of a basketball state, thus making a passionate fanbase from earliest ages. Heck, I grew up 90 miles from Champaign and my high school was small enough that we didn't even have a football team. Every nearby school started basketball "practice" (called open gym) the first week of classes. Football was the province of the big schools, basketball was for everyone.

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

The Galloping Ghost said:
Ding ding ding. What's the difference between the basketball team and the football team? Sustained periods of success. In-state, out-of-state, international students, the fanbase is there if the team can just freaking become relevant.

I do broadly believe this, but I do think there are a couple other explanations worth considering.

- The fanbase might just care more about basketball than football full stop. Which doesn't mean we wouldn't support a winner, but I think the bar just might be higher for football to trigger our particular fan base's interest. I wasn't born yet in 1983, but that has always seemed true in my time.

- One answer to the question of "how can Illinois send 30,000 people to watch a PRACTICE session during the Final Four but can only turn out 30,000 people on a beautiful college football Saturday?" might be that it's literally just the same 30,000 people and the hardcore of Illini Nation can make themselves felt more in a "smaller" sport.

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:
- One answer to the question of "how can Illinois send 30,000 people to watch a PRACTICE session during the Final Four but can only turn out 30,000 people on a beautiful college football Saturday?" might be that it's literally just the same 30,000 people and the hardcore of Illini Nation can make themselves felt more in a "smaller" sport.

I think that's proven false by @Navy_illini's post on page 6. Coming off the Rose Bowl in '07, we had two straight seasons of 60,000 fans per game. Attendance has withered since then because our best win total is 7 twice. We win and butts go into those seats. If we ever sustain several years of success in a row, something we haven't done in quite literally forever, and we suddenly have ourselves a full stadium.

Illinois 24, Virginia 3 Postgame

The inconveniences weren’t related to anything I specifically mentioned. The lack of inconveniences were their own positive from today’s gameday experience. And I’m sorry… you may have liked the war chant, but if you think that’s hype… then you’ve been attending a different set of games than I...

www.illinoisloyalty.com

Battle89 · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:
The thing for me about this conversation is that I understand why the search for explanations drifts in this direction, but it seems to ignore the reality that measured in terms of attendance, atmosphere, or lunatic social media following, Illinois Basketball is one of the biggest and most loyal and dedicated fanbases in the entire country, punching way above our weight.

If the explanation doesn't have a way to separate football from basketball, it feels incomplete and inaccurate to me.

Of course Illinois basketball has historically been much stronger, we agree on this.

I am not so much searching for explanations here as expressing my own feelings and situation. And better or not, the fact is that for most of my kids' lives, even the basketball team has had very mediocre results. Don't take the below to think that I expect a championship every year, or that I do not appreciate how hard it is to get to and stay at the top. But that is an awfully big gap post-2005.

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

The Galloping Ghost said:
I think that's proven false by @Navy_illini's post on page 6. Coming off the Rose Bowl in '07, we had two straight seasons of 60,000 fans per game. Attendance has withered since then because our best win total is 7 twice. We win and butts go into those seats. If we ever sustain several years of success in a row, something we haven't done in quite literally forever, and we suddenly have ourselves a full stadium.

Illinois 24, Virginia 3 Postgame

The inconveniences weren’t related to anything I specifically mentioned. The lack of inconveniences were their own positive from today’s gameday experience. And I’m sorry… you may have liked the war chant, but if you think that’s hype… then you’ve been attending a different set of games than I...

www.illinoisloyalty.com

I would be happy to be wrong, but I think people on this board are very mistaken in their belief that a string of 7-5's would produce the same attendance boom as Zook's Rose Bowl.

The same 35,000 would just be much happier.

I think the going forward bar is pretty clear, to be playing in those three weekly network telecasts somewhat regularly against the big teams and winning more often than we get embarrassed in them. To be a meaningful character on that top-rated TV show, so to speak.

That's a long long long way from where we are now and MUCH harder than consistent bowl berths in the B1G West.

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:
I would be happy to be wrong, but I think people on this board are very mistaken in their belief that a string of 7-5's would produce the same attendance boom as Zook's Rose Bowl.

The same 35,000 would just be much happier.

I mean, I don't consider a couple of years at 7-5 (which invariably will be 7-6) sustained success. I'm not sure anyone here is arguing that. As the evidence shows in the post I was referencing, winning 7 games doesn't move the needle. Nor should it, frankly. What that post does show is the immediate impact 9 wins and a bit of buzz can do. Now string together a couple of seasons of 8 and 9 wins (and I mean, I can dream of maybe even a double-digit win total once) and we fix our attendance issues.

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

We haven't had double-digit wins in 21 years. Seniors in college weren't alive the last time we achieved that. That is an absurd amount of time. Blaming our attendance on anything other than the fact we've been inarguably the worst team in the conference and arguably the worst major conference program is insane, frankly.

EyeoftheIllini · Sep 12, 2022

The Galloping Ghost said:
We haven't had double-digit wins in 21 years. Seniors in college weren't alive the last time we achieved that. That is an absurd amount of time. Blaming our attendance on anything other than the fact we've been inarguably the worst team in the conference and arguably the worst major conference program is insane, frankly.

You sure? I think it is all the foreign kids we’re letting in. //S

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

Show me the successful college football program with poor attendance.

ChiefGritty · Sep 12, 2022

The Galloping Ghost said:
Show me the successful college football program with poor attendance.

Sad Ncaa Basketball GIF by NCAA March Madness

The Galloping Ghost · Sep 12, 2022

ChiefGritty said:

In the last 20 years, they've won more than 7 games 6 times. They are drastically better than the dumpster fire that we are, but they are really only successful when compared to their history. If anything, I think it's kind of a hilarious indictment of how bad we are that Northwestern is viewed as successful. No other message board in the country would view them that way. They also have 8,000 people attending.

Even still, give us that lowly level of success over 20 years and I guarantee we consistently hit 60,000.