Illinois 73, Michigan State 70 POSTGAME

kcib8130 · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
I'm not talking about recruits. Players interests refers to your active players ("his players"), not recruits. This kid was in Groce's first class, a great representative of the school, fully healthy, played in 119 games here, and the point i was responding to was about being a players coach, keeping his players interests in mind, etc. In this instance, he did not. We're talking about any amount of seconds that is non-zero here. Thorne may be injured still, so that one's fine, but IMO it was super bogus to not get JT even one short tick on senior night.

On the recruit point, you don't think recruits watching MSU's senior night didn't appreciate Izzo getting Harris in the game? That was a monumental gesture. And even if they didn't see it live, that clip circulated pretty quick, because it matters.

I think that players understand the notion that everything has to be done in the interest of winning games, which we absolutely have to do from here on out. This isnt HS, you dont have to play seniors just because. I'm not sure there is a drastic difference between how it went down and playing 2 minutes in the middle of the first half (for example).

The Eron Harris situation really has me really conflicted. I get he wanted to get in the game one more time, but he was a transfer and only played two seasons there. I thought it was a bit much to go out and kiss the court and all that. But that is strictly my opinion, and not really evident of anything. (Plus totally off the topic)

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
I still think it was a major fault to not get Tate in the game on senior night as well

Strongly disagree.

Adnarel · Mar 3, 2017

Maybe we should have scheduled a cupcake for senior night instead of a good team and it wouldn't have been an issue. =P

combes · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
That's fine, folks can disagree with me, but I felt it was a gesture that should've been made. I strongly disagree that 30 seconds of Tate would've tanked our chances of winning that game. I'll take this stance alone.

But regardless, the original point stands that the "players interest" argument in favor of Groce doesn't hold up in its entirety for multiple reasons.

Perhaps Tate wouldn't have wanted to go in for 30 seconds. What does 30 seconds do for his career here? It might have been more insulting than honoring. Why not Thorne, then, too? Austin has been here for three years and played a lot of minutes last year. Why not him, also?

The game last night meant too much to the program to mess around. 30 seconds of Tate may not have changed a thing, but I still don't think it was necessary.

kcib8130 · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
That's fine, folks can disagree with me, but I felt it was a gesture that should've been made. I strongly disagree that 30 seconds of Tate would've tanked our chances of winning that game. I'll take this stance alone.

But regardless, the original point stands that the "players interest" argument in favor of Groce doesn't hold up in its entirety for multiple reasons.

I don't have any issue with your stance, i just think its completely wrong to say "JG isn't a player's coach" with nothing to base it off except your opinion of what you think he should have done.

Doesn't prove that, and I would bet that most of the players would disagree with you. Mostly through their play in the last two and a half weeks.

ChiefIllini · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
That's fine, folks can disagree with me, but I felt it was a gesture that should've been made. I strongly disagree that 30 seconds of Tate would've tanked our chances of winning that game. I'll take this stance alone.

Problem is, sometimes you can go a few minutes without being able to sub (unless of course you take a timeout, which now you're compromising not only a possession or two but also losing a TO that could be used in a critical point.)

I would've like to see every senior step on the floor, but the fact of the matter is this was an important and close game. We won by 3 pts. Can't risk losing by playing a kid just because he's a senior. We needed every off/def possesion that went our way to go our way (if that makes sense), and Tate/Thorne/Austin would've all been liabilities to hurt a possession here or there. OK done with the dead horse beating.

I'm sure those guys are disappointed but this isn't house league. You play the best players in the situation, regardless of standing. Tate knows this and should be happy the team won.

Swamp Donkey · Mar 3, 2017

In Div 1 College ball, you absolutely have to play to win at this time of the season, even on "Senior" night. As a coach, I hate this night because there are always unreal expectations from players and parents. Maybe we should consider doing what I am planning to start doing and make it earlier in season when there are still cupcakes on the schedule. This allows even SR walkons to get in game

mhuml32 · Mar 3, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
I'm not talking about recruits. Players interests refers to your active players ("his players"), not recruits. This kid was in Groce's first class, a great representative of the school, fully healthy, played in 119 games here, and the point i was responding to was about being a players coach, keeping his players interests in mind, etc. In this instance, he did not. We're talking about any amount of seconds that is non-zero here. Thorne may be injured still, so that one's fine, but IMO it was super bogus to not get JT even one short tick on senior night.

On the recruit point, you don't think recruits watching MSU's senior night didn't appreciate Izzo getting Harris in the game? That was a monumental gesture. And even if they didn't see it live, that clip circulated pretty quick, because it matters.

Can't compare the MSU situation, as that was very different than the current situation with Tate.

TCTORNADO · Mar 3, 2017

The guy I felt sorry for on Senior Night was Austin Colbert.

bigruss22 · Mar 3, 2017

On Tate/Thorne not playing:
That game was way too close to warrant freebie time to Tate and Thorne. I would've like it, but the game went down to the wire and any moves like that would be slammed by most. Especially if they ended up losing.

Groce made the right call.

whovous · Mar 3, 2017

bigruss22 said:
On Tate/Thorne not playing:
That game was way too close to warrant freebie time to Tate and Thorne. I would've like it, but the game went down to the wire and any moves like that would be slammed by most. Especially if they ended up losing.

Groce made the right call.

Thorne is a very large shadow of his former self, so putting him in would entail serious risk. My preference was to start Tate at the 2 in place of TA and then pull him at the first stoppage of play. His defense is fine and TJL could still bring the ball up.

That said, I don't really disagree with you. Groce made the right call.

TCTORNADO · Mar 3, 2017

Anybody notice that MSU waited until the ball got in Lucas' hands for the intentional foul in the last minute. I'm afraid with TJL being a 58% FT shooter we are going to see more of that.

Deleted member 29907 · Mar 3, 2017

kcib8130 said:
I think that players understand the notion that everything has to be done in the interest of winning games, which we absolutely have to do from here on out. This isnt HS, you dont have to play seniors just because. I'm not sure there is a drastic difference between how it went down and playing 2 minutes in the middle of the first half (for example).

The Eron Harris situation really has me really conflicted. I get he wanted to get in the game one more time, but he was a transfer and only played two seasons there. I thought it was a bit much to go out and kiss the court and all that. But that is strictly my opinion, and not really evident of anything. (Plus totally off the topic)

Agree. I think MH crying because we won has much more of an impact on recruits that seeing JT in for 2 token minutes. This was a 3 point game. And from the start we could not afford to take one possession off. If anything, we've been hard on Groce because he's been too nice. I think JW got to him and let him know 'nice' won't keep your job - quit spreading out the PT. This is not HS.

Deleted member 29907 · Mar 3, 2017

TCTORNADO said:
Anybody notice that MSU waited until the ball got in Lucas' hands for the intentional foul in the last minute. I'm afraid with TJL being a 58% FT shooter we are going to see more of that.

Saw that and it was very obvious. With TA and JCL as options - we have alternatives to receive that pass. JG did that in another recent game where TJL was the receiver of the inbounds pass on an obvious foul situation. Would hope he now knows. They did let TA dribble a bit on the last play into Morgan before giving it to TA.

Bailey · Mar 3, 2017

VAIllini35 said:
Saw that and it was very obvious. With TA and JCL as options - we have alternatives to receive that pass. JG did that in another recent game where TJL was the receiver of the inbounds pass on an obvious foul situation. Would hope he now knows. They did let TA dribble a bit on the last play into Morgan before giving it to TA.

TJL and Finke looked shaky in those final couple minutes. Hopefully they become conditioned with more high-pressure situations in the near future.

grue · Mar 3, 2017

TCTORNADO said:
Anybody notice that MSU waited until the ball got in Lucas' hands for the intentional foul in the last minute. I'm afraid with TJL being a 58% FT shooter we are going to see more of that.

Rick Barry style underhand freethrows should become an Illini trademark. When IL is the top freethrow shooting team in the nation (a likely consequence), the perceived stigma should go away quickly.

FatGreg · Mar 3, 2017

grue said:
Rick Barry style underhand freethrows should become an Illini trademark. When IL is the top freethrow shooting team in the nation (a likely consequence), the perceived stigma should go away quickly.

No joke, I shoot my free throws underhand and make close to 90 percent. I'm not a bad shooter in general - it's just flat out more efficient.

For those curious, my game is a combination of flashy ball handling, 25-foot pull-ups, ambidextrous old man post moves, and Rick Berry free throws. I'm pretty good and not actually fat (though I could stand to drop ten pounds or so before summer). I don't know if this information is disappointing, but there you have it.

Illiniguy13 · Mar 3, 2017

FatGreg said:
No joke, I shoot my free throws underhand and make close to 90 percent. I'm not a bad shooter in general - it's just flat out more efficient.

For those curious, my game is a combination of flashy ball handling, 25-foot pull-ups, ambidextrous old man post moves, and Rick Berry free throws. I'm pretty good and not actually fat (though I could stand to drop ten pounds or so before summer). I don't know if this information is disappointing, but there you have it.

We have our PG

The Dave · Mar 3, 2017

Adnarel said:
It would straight-up revolutionize his game and make him a matchup nightmare for most teams. Somebody who can post and rebound like a man as well as shoot from beyond the arc? Yikes.

Like Swannigan?

Deleted member 29907 · Mar 3, 2017

Bailey said:
TJL and Finke looked shaky in those final couple minutes. Hopefully they become conditioned with more high-pressure situations in the near future.

True. Games like this last one will help with the nerves. TJL is a bit nervous at the line in crunch time. Regardless of FT nerves - TJL does not back down though. I liked the way he blocked that shot after he fouled and the whistle had already blown.

ILLHangOut · Mar 3, 2017

Illiniaaron said:
For those who are wondering about Abram's turnaround toward the end of the season, I think it correlates with Lucas taking over the starting point guard job. It took pressure off of Tracy and enabled him not to play as many minutes. He doesn't have all that responsibility of being the team's "engine" and can just concentrate on his shot. He slots in better coming off the bench. What do you guys think?

I agree. I think his usage rate has been far too high for his ability, so when he hit the slump he just killed our team efficiency. I'm not trying to knock him, but IMO he was forcing far too much, and just wasted possessions in games that were close. During conference play he has the lowest efficiency rating of the regular rotation which just means that statistically not enough good things happen when he is in, and I think that's because he was forcing things.

I very much appreciate that he seems to be picking his spots now, and isn't attempting to drive to the basket. If he keeps playing within his abilities I think we have a much much higher ceiling because he can be a real asset.
And here is the excerpt on PER just so it doesn't seem like I'm bashing him; it's just what the numbers show.

"The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/illinois/2017.html

Illiniwek06 · Mar 3, 2017

VAIllini35 said:
Regardless of FT nerves - TJL does not back down though. I liked the way he blocked that shot after he fouled and the whistle had already blown.

His defense where he stripped Bridges driving with 5 seconds left to keep a two point lead was awesome. Instead of describing his play in an inappropriate way, I'll let Sam demonstrate my thoughts:

chief9 · Mar 3, 2017

TCTORNADO said:
Anybody notice that MSU waited until the ball got in Lucas' hands for the intentional foul in the last minute. I'm afraid with TJL being a 58% FT shooter we are going to see more of that.

I'm not making a comparison in terms of talent, but Deron Williams shot 53.3% from the FT line as a freshman. Lucas was a good FT shooter in college, his percentage will rise as he gets more experience

Illinois 73, Michigan State 70 POSTGAME

kcib8130

WesterveltVictoryCigar

Adnarel

combes

kcib8130

ChiefIllini

Swamp Donkey

mhuml32

TCTORNADO

bigruss22

whovous

TCTORNADO

Deleted member 29907

Guest

Deleted member 29907

Guest

Bailey

grue

FatGreg

Illiniguy13

The Dave

Deleted member 29907

Guest

ILLHangOut

Illiniwek06

chief9