Illinois 75, Tennessee 62 Postgame

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#403      
Chuck Nuggets
I haven't been able to read the game thread or postgame thread. Is it just me, or was that the most physical game Illinois has played in a long time? That looked more like the upcoming Illinois-Tennessee bowl game than a hoops game.
 
#404      
aaeismacgychel
NarrowJ said:
Ben has:

- more size (6-8 230 vs 6-9 240)
- better career FG%
- better career 3%
- better career FT%
- equal in rebs / min
- 3x more blk / min
- 60% lower foul rate
- 70% lower turnover rate

But this isn't about Ben vs Lucas Johnson, honestly I forget who brought this up now even (edit: it was BatteredWifeSchwartz)... my post was just an observation about how casual fans now have the ability to go on a message board and give their opinions... less people could do that in 1997... we just get a lot of wild takes and people succumb to group-think and it becomes a big old pile-on sometimes when the team isn't doing as well as we want and have to identify who the scapegoats are
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I get the sentiment, but Lucas Johnson is hard to compare to as it was completely another era. What he did on the court he was extremely good at, and only part of that was basketball. When looking at him from a stats perspective 25 years later, it's not going to hold up because that honestly wasn't the game he played.

People also tend to forget since it's been so long, but Lucas actually did have some talent as a basketball player, but the multiple knee injuries he had really limited him. We also forget recovery, strength and conditioning, and medical procedures when it comes to torn ACLs have advanced incredibly since then.

But as a consummate team player, he filled the role the team needed to and became the heart and soul enforcer the team needed. And man was he good at that. He could play 3 minutes, rack up 5 fouls, get a rebound, force a turnover, and as crazy as it sounds, absolutely take over a game. He was such a disruptive force he caused opponents to completely lose their minds and they'd be done the rest of the game.

Point is, it was just a way different time period and you won't see another Lucas but man was he important to the team.

That said, Ben is doing all the necessary things this year. He has been so much better, tougher, and grittier defensively this year and is making plays hearts and souls of teams make. And he's an important part of this team. No need to compare.
 
#406      
NarrowJ
aaeismacgychel said:
I get the sentiment, but Lucas Johnson is hard to compare to as it was completely another era. What he did on the court he was extremely good at, and only part of that was basketball. When looking at him from a stats perspective 25 years later, it's not going to hold up because that honestly wasn't the game he played.

People also tend to forget since it's been so long, but Lucas actually did have some talent as a basketball player, but the multiple knee injuries he had really limited him. We also forget recovery, strength and conditioning, and medical procedures when it comes to torn ACLs have advanced incredibly since then.

But as a consummate team player, he filled the role the team needed to and became the heart and soul enforcer the team needed. And man was he good at that. He could play 3 minutes, rack up 5 fouls, get a rebound, force a turnover, and as crazy as it sounds, absolutely take over a game. He was such a disruptive force he caused opponents to completely lose their minds and they'd be done the rest of the game.

Point is, it was just a way different time period and you won't see another Lucas but man was he important to the team.

That said, Ben is doing all the necessary things this year. He has been so much better, tougher, and grittier defensively this year and is making plays hearts and souls of teams make. And he's an important part of this team. No need to compare.
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Totally agree with all of this

Again, I was merely pointing out how different things are now with everyone having internet to chime in on things (even said in my post it wasn’t really about Lucas vs Ben… but I get that people hold Lucas near and dear, as I do, but if we were to compare them: Ben is superior in just about any category, yet has been hated vs Lucas who everyone loved)
 
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#407      
Stevegarbs
Big Jack said:
IMHO the problem at home is the fact the rowdy fans are generally in section 200 row 15. The sleepy old folks who pay the big bucks mostly sit on their butts all ,game and pose for the camera when it is scanning the crowd. If they want to get the place rocking they need to rearrange the seating situation. Sadly when the renovated the place more thought should have gone into getting the big donors off of the floor and into the middle tier. One only needs to look at a Mich St crowd
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Hey, I resemble that remark!
 
#409      
NarrowJ
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Except winning games.
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.664 winning percentage vs .659 for Ben

So... MEH, half a percentage point... clearly not enough difference to have one guy be the butt of every single joke and the other be remembered as a saint

EDIT: Scratch that... Lucas only played in 17 games his senior year, so Ben also has a better winning percentage than Lucas did
 
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#410      
foby
pruman91 said:
No.....I had a stroke on Sat 11-22 and have been in ICU for 6 days and now in rehab therapy for at least 2 more weeks or longer depending on how it goes...

They are treating me wonderfully here.....they really are....
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Get well my friend.

speed GIF
 
#414      
BretMyBeachHouse
NarrowJ said:
.664 winning percentage vs .659 for Ben

So... MEH, half a percentage point... clearly not enough difference to have one guy be the butt of every single joke and the other be remembered as a saint

EDIT: Scratch that... Lucas only played in 17 games his senior year, so Ben also has a better winning percentage than Lucas did
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Lol. So I guess Jake Davis likewise stands ahead of lucas in winning games.

If you don't understand the intangibles that Lucas brought than it's really not worth debating. It can't be proven by stats. That's why it's called an intangible.
 
#415      
NarrowJ
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Lol. So I guess Jake Davis likewise stands ahead of lucas in winning games.

If you don't understand the intangibles that Lucas brought than it's really not worth debating. It can't be proven by stats. That's why it's called an intangible.
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Jake Davis isn’t who we are talking about… Lets not distract from the actual conversation we’re having… Jake hasn’t made anywhere near the contributions that Ben has. You were the one that brought up winning games, not me. Blew up in your face a little, didn’t it? You quipped “except winning games” which was wrong, and so now you’ve suddenly decided that isn’t a good indicator anymore.

I do understand the intangibles Lucas brought, I’ve said that and it’s actually part of my main point: Ben brings a lot of the same stuff, just in greater quality and quantity, and people refuse to acknowledge it even when it’s proven to them

Edit: the main thing here is this- Ben is a superior player to Lucas Johnson by every conceivable metric… why can’t he be appreciated too?
 
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#417      
BretMyBeachHouse
NarrowJ said:
Jake Davis isn’t who we are talking about… Lets not distract from the actual conversation we’re having… Jake hasn’t made anywhere near the contributions that Ben has. You were the one that brought up winning games, not me. Blew up in your face a little, didn’t it?

I do understand the intangibles Lucas brought, I’ve said that and it’s actually part of my main point: Ben brings a lot of the same stuff, just in greater quality and quantity, and people refuse to acknowledge it even when it’s proven to them

Edit: the main thing here is this- Ben is a superior player to Lucas Johnson by every conceivable metric… why can’t he be appreciated too?
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It didn't blow up a bit. Lucas made huge contributions to back to back big ten title teams his last two years. You literally included the 14-18 freshman year to get his win percentage below BH.

But again. This isn't a statistical thing. Lucas brought intangibles to the court that altered games and heled turn us into champions.

Hopefully this is Ben's year to do the same. But last year his contributions on the court payed in comparison.

Another way for me to express that. If we had Lucas Johnson on the team last year we win more games.

And yes I appreciate BH. I don't believe I've dropped any of the jibes others have. I think he was saddled with ridiculous expectations from fans and insiders that color people's impressions. Criticisms have largely been unfair.
 
#419      
NarrowJ
BretMyBeachHouse said:
It didn't blow up a bit. Lucas made huge contributions to back to back big ten title teams his last two years. You literally included the 14-18 freshman year to get his win percentage below BH.

But again. This isn't a statistical thing. Lucas brought intangibles to the court that altered games and heled turn us into champions.

Hopefully this is Ben's year to do the same. But last year his contributions on the court payed in comparison.

Another way for me to express that. If we had Lucas Johnson on the team last year we win more games.

And yes I appreciate BH. I don't believe I've dropped any of the jibes others have. I think he was saddled with ridiculous expectations from fans and insiders that color people's impressions. Criticisms have largely been unfair.
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Should I not include a season that he contributed to? Here let’s do that with Ben: I’m going to exclude every game we lost that he played in. BEN IS UNDEFEATED AS AN ILLINI.

Hopefully you can see why your comment doesn’t make any sense. In fact, Lucas only played 17 games his last year… contributed a lot less to that team than you want to give him credit for.

I agree with your last paragraph so is your main point of contempt just being rendered as a defense of Lucas Johnson? Because I’ve said literally nothing negative about him (I even said I loved the guy earlier).

I think swapping Lucas Johnson for Ben last year means we lose more games. That’s just an opinion, just like yours. I respect your opinion, however everything we can possibly look at that is measurable in any way whatsoever favors BH.

I’m honestly now having trouble identifying exactly what your beef here is.
 
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#420      
lstewart53x3
BretMyBeachHouse said:
It didn't blow up a bit. Lucas made huge contributions to back to back big ten title teams his last two years. You literally included the 14-18 freshman year to get his win percentage below BH.

But again. This isn't a statistical thing. Lucas brought intangibles to the court that altered games and heled turn us into champions.

Hopefully this is Ben's year to do the same. But last year his contributions on the court payed in comparison.

Another way for me to express that. If we had Lucas Johnson on the team last year we win more games.

And yes I appreciate BH. I don't believe I've dropped any of the jibes others have. I think he was saddled with ridiculous expectations from fans and insiders that color people's impressions. Criticisms have largely been unfair.
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Yeah. I think the problem with Ben and the reason why he hasn’t received the same love as a Lucas Johnson so far is that he wasn’t billed as the kind of player coming into last season.

He wasn’t billed promoted as a possible leading scorer and obviously didn’t live up to that expectation. And last year, he didn’t do the little things all that well either, like rebound, play tough D, etc.

If he continues to play like he did last night the rest of the season, I see him becoming a fan favorite.

And I’d absolutely love to see that. He seems like a great kid.
 
#422      
BretMyBeachHouse
NarrowJ said:
Should I not include a season that he contributed to? Here let’s do that with Ben: I’m going to exclude every game we lost that he played in. BEN IS UNDEFEATED AS AN ILLINI.

Hopefully you can see why your comment doesn’t make any sense. In fact, Lucas only played 17 games his last year… contributed a lot less to that team than you want to give him credit for.

I agree with your last paragraph so is your main point of contempt just being rendered as a defense of Lucas Johnson? Because I’ve said literally nothing negative about him (I even said I loved the guy earlier).

I think swapping Lucas Johnson for Ben last year means we lose more games. That’s just an opinion, just like yours. I respect your opinion, however everything we can possibly look at that is measurable in any way whatsoever favors BH.

I’m honestly now having trouble identifying exactly what your beef here is.
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Well, when you said that Lucas couldn't hold Ben's jock it was pretty clear we had different impressions of Lucas. You didn't consider that negative. I think most people would say it is
 
#423      
NarrowJ
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Well, when you said that Lucas couldn't hold Ben's jock it was pretty clear we had different impressions of Lucas. You didn't consider that negative. I think most people would say it is
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I certainly don’t consider it anywhere near as negative as the things that have been said about Ben the last year and a half

If you think it’s negative that’s fine with me, it’s just a true statement is all

I also said I loved Lucas at least 2x so give me equal credit for those comments
 
#424      
blackdog
BretMyBeachHouse said:
Well, when you said that Lucas couldn't hold Ben's jock it was pretty clear we had different impressions of Lucas. You didn't consider that negative. I think most people would say it is
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You just completely made up a quote and attributed it to him to argue with....the only real comparison he made was that Ben has better numbers than Lucas, which is factual.
 
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