Metrics wise we are better than the 20-21 team, but those efficiencies only mean so much nowadays as people have learned to juice the books.
I do agree we have a better offense. Scoring is up, ppg is up, in addition to the efficiencies.
Illinois 79, Northwestern 68 Postgame
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I do agree we have a better offense. Scoring is up, ppg is up, in addition to the efficiencies.
The 20-21 team feels like it was the best team, in a conference, like SEC football feels now. We assumed it was a deep league, but in reality, many of those teams, Illinois included, lacked enough size and physicality on the wing. We had Kofi obviously, just like Iowa had Garza, but we fell behind the shift in the way the game had evolved. I think we lose sight, due to our own nightmare, the Big Ten as a whole that tournament was apocalyptic stuff.
If there's been one dynamic Underwood has clung onto as a coach who consistenly evolves his roster, it's that he'll never lack size and length on the perimeter again. In hindsight, I wonder how heartbroken he truly was over the Ace departure.
edit: i say all this knowing full well Baylor won, and they were actually probably even smaller. But that's been the most ferocious onball defense ive seen in all my years watching the sport.
If there's been one dynamic Underwood has clung onto as a coach who consistenly evolves his roster, it's that he'll never lack size and length on the perimeter again. In hindsight, I wonder how heartbroken he truly was over the Ace departure.
edit: i say all this knowing full well Baylor won, and they were actually probably even smaller. But that's been the most ferocious onball defense ive seen in all my years watching the sport.
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ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
This team is deeper with guys that dominate in certain aspects, that's true. But however you want to torture the word "talented", nobody on this team is as individually good and impactful as Ayo and Kofi were.
Confused I'm kinda partial to Ride of the Valkyries and Lohengrin, but your choices are rock solid.
I'd like to return to "icewater" in his veins, from "ice."
Much respect to your posts but disagree. This team is really balanced and can make ft’s. That team was choppy - talented yes but didn’t shoot as well.That 20-21 team was the team … I think this might be the 2nd best team Brad has had though …
2020-21 Men's Basketball Roster - University of Illinois Athletics
The official 2020-21 Men's Basketball Roster for the University of Illinois Fighting Illinifightingillini.com
They should have reviewed it for a hook and hold- he grabbed his arm!
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Ultimately the whole conversation is trying to bargain away from the unavoidable reality that ANY team in college basketball can have the wrong performance on the wrong day in March and have it all taken away from them.
20-21 was a truly great team, they earned that over the course of a full season which this very exciting and promising team has not done yet. But NOTHING they could possibly do over the next two months, win out, dominate everybody, enter the tournament at #1, nothing, makes you immune from a Loyola. That is the thrill and the agony of our crazy sport.
In all sincerity Indy, I pray you were not a communication major. But if so, I am certain there are several here with law degrees that would gladly assist you in getting your money refunded for tuition. The above post might as well be written in Mandarin...but then maybe I should sue my second grade teacher for failing to teach me any reading skills!!
What in the world does the above translate?
What in the world does the above translate?
If we have the debate between this year's team and the 2021 team.... firstly, just as disclosure, I can almost feel one of the arguments for the 2021 team being the "refuse to lose" saying that's been thrown around here ad nauseam. While I have utterly no clue what that refers to, and on the other hand this year's team has the more well-rounded metrics (which does not account for recency basis or pessimism depending on which side one is on), I do think ultimately what we should look for is resume over the metrics (because, let's be honest, both teams are extremely talented, and ultimately it comes down to who you beat).
To start, that team didn't have nearly the non-conference that this team had. Yes Baylor was incredible, but Duke (whom we beat) was awful that year, and we also lost to Missouri.
Where we really made our mark however was conference play. I'd argue the B10 that year was just as, if not even more stacked than this year. The four "tier 1" teams that were clearly above the rest of the league were: Illinois, Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan (as a sidenote, I think Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Nebraska can rival that this year). We went an astounding 5-1 against the other three teams, lone loss being to Ohio State, which was influenced by a horrible missed call at the end.
Overall we finished with just 6 losses (pre tournament) and won the big ten tournament. There's just so much value in hanging a banner IMO.
So, just looking at the regular season results (not counting tourney.... yet), for me the bar to beat for this team to be considered in the same hemisphere as that regular season would be a) hang a banner, tourney or reg season and b) get AT MINIMUM a 2 seed, which would mean a max of 7 or 8 losses (again, 2021 team finished with 6).
Now we get to the tournament aspect. This is the hardest part to judge because it comes down one, super subjective thing, and that is: by how much more does one weigh tourney success over regular season success. It's a one and done game, and lots of Cinderella teams advance, and great teams lose. It has almost NOTHING to do with how great of a team you are, but EVERYTHING to do with how your season is perceived.
A person who claims they live and die by the tourney would likely conceed to say 2022 Michigan -- who were ranked #6 preseason, had an insanely disappointing year, made it in as a 11 seed, but made a S16 -- is a more successful year than 2021 Illinois. They'd almost certainly claim 2024 Illinois is more successful than 2021 Illinois.
IMHO, if the discussion will reign to be who's THE BETTER team, the tourney is far from the make or break deal. If it's about which is the more successful season, then it's by far the biggest qualifier. But since our team this year and the '21 team are both talent wise very potent.... if we make it in this year as a 2 seed, make a final four, whereas that team was a 1 seed but lost in the 1-8... almost certainly people would say this team had the more successful year AND is the better team. FWIW, I think the '01 Illini were a real talented bunch, but don't even get mentioned with the 2005 and 1989 teams since they don't have the F4 to show for it.
All in all, time will tell the fate of each season in comparison to its past teams. I feel like the '21 team was super top-heavy offensively with Ayo, Kofi, Trent, etc. This year's group, in contrast, could have all 5 starters average double figures, but no one guy average 20 -- kinda like UCONN two years ago. At the end it evens out, probably by a hair in favor of this year's group. The '21 team was super stout defensively however (number 7 in Kenpom in AdjD).
To start, that team didn't have nearly the non-conference that this team had. Yes Baylor was incredible, but Duke (whom we beat) was awful that year, and we also lost to Missouri.
Where we really made our mark however was conference play. I'd argue the B10 that year was just as, if not even more stacked than this year. The four "tier 1" teams that were clearly above the rest of the league were: Illinois, Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan (as a sidenote, I think Illinois, Michigan, Purdue, Nebraska can rival that this year). We went an astounding 5-1 against the other three teams, lone loss being to Ohio State, which was influenced by a horrible missed call at the end.
Overall we finished with just 6 losses (pre tournament) and won the big ten tournament. There's just so much value in hanging a banner IMO.
So, just looking at the regular season results (not counting tourney.... yet), for me the bar to beat for this team to be considered in the same hemisphere as that regular season would be a) hang a banner, tourney or reg season and b) get AT MINIMUM a 2 seed, which would mean a max of 7 or 8 losses (again, 2021 team finished with 6).
Now we get to the tournament aspect. This is the hardest part to judge because it comes down one, super subjective thing, and that is: by how much more does one weigh tourney success over regular season success. It's a one and done game, and lots of Cinderella teams advance, and great teams lose. It has almost NOTHING to do with how great of a team you are, but EVERYTHING to do with how your season is perceived.
A person who claims they live and die by the tourney would likely conceed to say 2022 Michigan -- who were ranked #6 preseason, had an insanely disappointing year, made it in as a 11 seed, but made a S16 -- is a more successful year than 2021 Illinois. They'd almost certainly claim 2024 Illinois is more successful than 2021 Illinois.
IMHO, if the discussion will reign to be who's THE BETTER team, the tourney is far from the make or break deal. If it's about which is the more successful season, then it's by far the biggest qualifier. But since our team this year and the '21 team are both talent wise very potent.... if we make it in this year as a 2 seed, make a final four, whereas that team was a 1 seed but lost in the 1-8... almost certainly people would say this team had the more successful year AND is the better team. FWIW, I think the '01 Illini were a real talented bunch, but don't even get mentioned with the 2005 and 1989 teams since they don't have the F4 to show for it.
All in all, time will tell the fate of each season in comparison to its past teams. I feel like the '21 team was super top-heavy offensively with Ayo, Kofi, Trent, etc. This year's group, in contrast, could have all 5 starters average double figures, but no one guy average 20 -- kinda like UCONN two years ago. At the end it evens out, probably by a hair in favor of this year's group. The '21 team was super stout defensively however (number 7 in Kenpom in AdjD).
altgeld88
- Arlington, Virginia
Have been gone since early morning. Just got on to the Board and the postgame thread.
The fact that we spent the day arguing about whether the '20-'21 team or this team is better says a great deal about where we are in dead-mid January.
Keep it up, boys. I want this discussion to continue through March and into April.
The fact that we spent the day arguing about whether the '20-'21 team or this team is better says a great deal about where we are in dead-mid January.
Keep it up, boys. I want this discussion to continue through March and into April.
It occurs to me, and if anyone knows a thing or two about hypnosis please chime in, that hypnotic suggestion to each player to see the basket and their ability to put a ball in the net as elite on every game day, that such treatment might be effective, especially in the tournament. Maybe it is already used, but I would be surprised. Has it ever been done? Yes or no, does it work consistently enough to be worth the effort? Could hypnosis be effectively used in any way? Is it ever used in other sports? I simply don't know.
In general, when an elite shooter rises up to release a shot, he is confident, if there is no threat of a block, that the ball will go through the net. That confidence is bred and grown on the hardwood, asphalt, and driveways during a decade of development and literally hundreds of thousands of shots. Could hypnotic suggestion be used to enhance the process? The idea occurred to me many years ago but I have never found anyone knowledgeable enough to answer definitively...or with any expertise.
Anyone with some credible input?
In general, when an elite shooter rises up to release a shot, he is confident, if there is no threat of a block, that the ball will go through the net. That confidence is bred and grown on the hardwood, asphalt, and driveways during a decade of development and literally hundreds of thousands of shots. Could hypnotic suggestion be used to enhance the process? The idea occurred to me many years ago but I have never found anyone knowledgeable enough to answer definitively...or with any expertise.
Anyone with some credible input?
Your post is very informative, but I gotta tell ya, you probably went from 10+ likes to zero in that first paragraph. All anyone would likely refer to is Ayo’s clutch gene, which was, unquestionably one of the greatest things I’ve seen as a fan of this program. The mixtape that he put together under 2 minutes was the difference is soooo many games during the turnaround of this program.
Hopefully by April it's no longer even a discussion.
Only 3 bad ones. Better than most Big Ten games.
Loyola just ugh. Let’s face it BU got severly outcoached that game. Incredible group of guys. But we were done after the first minute.
I'd argue that it should. Loyola was #9 in kenpom on Selection Sunday, won their conference, and should not have been seeded as an 8 seed.
ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Stages of Grief, The Loyola Game Edition
1. Denial
2. Bargaining
3. Anger
I have made it all the way to 4. Depression.
I don't think I'll ever get to 5. Acceptance.
1. Denial
2. Bargaining
3. Anger
I have made it all the way to 4. Depression.
I don't think I'll ever get to 5. Acceptance.
Agree, but Loyola promptly lost the next game to the 12 seeded Oregon State team by 7 points who did figure them out and were clearly the better team.
Really we had no excuse to lose that game.
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