Illinois 86, Wisconsin 80 Postgame
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Good catch
Nobody has argued about his shooting or rebounding, to my knowledge.
My real issue with Ben playing is the logic Brad uses to justify wanting to have a shooter to space the floor even if the guy is missing. I’d rather have Morez hovering aroung the paint trying to clean up the glass, and at least giving you a threat of a post up/seal/dunk plus or tipping out missed 3 pt attempts, than 5 guys spaced out around the 3 pt line. To me there’s diminishing returns for the overall team if you have 5 perimeter oriented players. You really only need at most 3 to keep teams honest in guarding the 3
Brad has this misconception that bigs clog the lane when you run a pace and space offense. But if you watch NBA teams do it, those big guys get tons of lob dunks off the high ball screen action when the PG draws the big in the lane and lobs it up. They aren’t lane cloggers.
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I agree we need shooters to space the floor, but I don't think that has to be Ben. I'd much rather have Riley getting those minutes at the PF spot - at least he rebounds, can create some offense for him and others and he's a good catch and shoot three player. I know Ben is where he should be on defense much more often to Brad likes that (he just gets beat even if he's in the right place) where Riley brings so much more to the table.
Ben should be the 10 min rotation guy and on nights he's hot he plays 20+ min - like Goode last year or every other team that has an off the bench three point specialist - that is his role - he's only a shooter, play him that way
One of the more interesting things about stats and data is that people tend to like them when they agree with them and hate them with a burning passion when they don't. So I'll give you one you'll like a lot more and one that may help explain things to a lot of confused fans:
Brad is a very high proponent of plus/minus and efficiency based stats. He has spoken about that regularly in the past, so let'ssee how Ben ranks there. And would you look at that, as of right now, Ben is considered our 2nd best defender in defensive efficiency, giving up approximately 4.8pts less than the average NCAA player per 100pts scored. And if you multiply out by minutes share, Ben's basically neck and neck with Morez in points denied above an average NCAA player. Taken seriously, this metric shows him as one of the 40 best defenders in all of college basketball. And yes, this is a metric that NCAA head coaches use. So celebrate! Validation, right?
Well, the problem is that the raw plus/minus defensive efficiency metric has some issues, especially when it comes to individual players. It's not well regarded by the statistics community because there's a lot of noise in this data, as it can't really differentiate between if you're a driver of the numbers, a contributor to those numbers, or having those numbers take you for a ride. It's why there's so much variability year to year for players in this stat, and why NHL analysts have all but disregarded it as a valid measure.
As an example this year's Humrichous should be considered an ELITE defender based on this data:
24-25 Humrichous: 4.8pts/100 better than average
24-25 Sencire Harris: 4.1/100 better
20-21 Kofi: 3.7/100 better
20-21 Ayo: 3.0/100 better
24-25 Boswell: 2.9pts/100 better
23-24 TSJ: 1.0pt/100 better
So based on metrics, Humrichous might be one of the best defenders we've ever seen in an Illini uniform. The question for everyone is though, is how much stock you want to put into raw plus/minus. I think it tells a good story, like the team tends to play better overall when Ben is on the court, but it doesn't necessarily correlate to his individual defensive performance. But you can come to your own conclusion
I don't like +/- myself, either.
I'm just saying... a guy says he's going to personally and meticulously track Ben's opponent's statistical output, play-by-play, for the remainder of the entire season, when this data is already readily available in a format that is consumed by D1 college coaches, and I can expect this person's data to not be biased in any way and to be more accurate than what the top 10 D1 head coach is using? The metrics already exist, they're already being utilized by the people who matter. I'll use that.
Maybe he's using DRtg, maybe he is using +/-, maybe its something else. The whole point is, its better than anything any of us could hope to come up with, especially if we're just marking an X beside his name every time someone scores and he's within 3 feet of them.
Last thing I think I can say on the matter: Ben's opponents have shot 40% the last 2 games. Now... Ben cannot shoot 15 percent... his shooting is reason 1A why he is out there. He's also going to have to rebound better. But, the defense stuff is absolute nonsense.
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We can certainly agree here. And I think you're last paragraph, if you care to look back at my posts, sums up what I and many others have been saying the last week. If he is not scoring and rebounding, he cannot be out there more minutes than other players who are.
Yeah 10 straight would be crazy good. And theyve only been "bad" one of the years (61 kenpom in 2022).
Oh now! There's been 100 posts about his defense...
Not from me. Like I have said, I think he is a great candidate to be a 15 minute guy who comes in and hits some threes and is an important part of the rotation. Just not a 25 minute guy.
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This...plus we've seen this happen a few times with transfers. Boards were pretty hard on the first few games of Grandison if i recall too.
Domask at this point last year was i think like 20% from 3 or something.
Ben is leading the team in 3PFG made and some are acting like he hasnt made a shot all year(took the most too but still hes hitting at an acceptable %). Also has turned the ball over just twice the entire year so far
He def needs to get back on track, hit the boards (needs to pump that avg from 3 to 5 at least). I think his defense woes are overstated. A lot of the times he is scored on are covering or helping.
For instance, last night right after he made a 3, on the next play he had to help on a pick and roll dribbler who had the angle to turn the corner....which leaves his man open to stop the drive. They pass out, and the guy hits a 3..and the game thread was acting like that's just on Ben....LOL
Agreed! Losing is overrated.
What's wrong with all these teams seeking matchups with BH? Not a fan,or understand what these metrics really mean.In my eyes Ben is a subpar defender whose shooting will be awesome and win us some big games.
I have been high on Trey White since he got here and he showed a couple of flashes but last night was great. Some posters have been pretty harsh concerning White's play and understandably so. Some even suggested that they wish Ty could come back. I love Ty and what he brings but his game does not translate to what Trey did last night. At least not yet. This team will continue to stub their toe every now and then but by February, they should really be good. I wish they could get it together and win the regular conference championship but that will be a very tall order. Talent is there.
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ChiefGritty
- Chicago, IL
Everyone is so addicted to comparing Domask to Humrichous. Totally different players.
But, one important major difference between them is that Humrichous is a MUCH better shooter.
That jumper is a huge weapon and totally changes how the team is defended, BU is right to let him shoot through it, he will be a difference maker for us, even if it's nothing like the centrality to the offense that Domask had.
1m4tr
Cliffmas
Ben is like Brady Manek when he transferred from Oklahoma to UNC. He was lost until January. Got abused on defense. Didn’t know when to shoot and missed way more than he made. Then something clicked in February and they rode him almost the entire way to the Championship. Let’s have some patience and grace for him.
The original poster must be a youngster. Us old farts remember fondly breaking Wisconsin's LONG home winning streak. (Maybe even the medium farts remember it: it wassn't all THAT long ago.)
Wow... pretty much the entire game highlights are him...
Please, if you don't mind, what are the Mega Lotto numbers for this weekend?
Just kidding! I hope you are right! Nobody would be happier to eat crow than me.
Same. I haven't been patient because what I have seen hasn't been good and he's been bullied by little dudes and hunted by other offenses. But.....
I’m not sure RJ Melendez ever got out of his 3 point shooting slump.
I DO believe Ben will, though. He’s a better shooter than RJ…but he popped into my head when I read this.
How did someone put together a highlight reel without Tre's putback slam?
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