Illinois 90, Arkansas 77 Postgame

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#301      
EyeoftheIllini
HensonHall71 said:
Our best lineup is
KJ
Kylan
Will
Morez
Tomi

At some point we should just start that lineup. We don’t need Ben’s shooting as much with Riley on the floor and we don’t need Tre’s rebounding
with Morez on the floor- this 5 is our best complement of offense, defense and rebounding
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Is it the best lineup or just the 5 “best” players? I didn’t look up exactly how well that lineup did against Ark (too many moving parts), but I did look at how team did with Tomi and Morez both on floor. As best I can tell, they played together for about 4:30 minutes (all in first half) and team was +6 during that time. Illini were +15 for half. One thing I noticed though is that Morez picked up 2 of his 3 fouls when both were in game together. Was that because he was guarding a 4 rather than 5? I don’t know.

I would not start Morez and Tomi together because I know our best lineup does not include Ben or Booth at the 5, and that’s what might have to happen if both Morez and Tomi get in foul trouble while playing together. In the 2 games against P5 competition, Morez has 7 fouls in 23 minutes. I don’t think Tomi had foul issues against AL but he did foul out in 30 minutes in this last game. I think Morez and Tomi together can be effective, but would much rather BU pick his spots based on matchups and game situation rather than just throw them out together to start.
 
#302      
Fly Illini Fly!
HensonHall71 said:
Our best lineup is
KJ
Kylan
Will
Morez
Tomi

At some point we should just start that lineup. We don’t need Ben’s shooting as much with Riley on the floor and we don’t need Tre’s rebounding
with Morez on the floor- this 5 is our best complement of offense, defense and rebounding
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No, gotta have Ben in there. Elite shooter. Always essential the way we play offense.

For defense - KJ, Kylan, Will, Ben, Morez. For offense - KJ, Kylan, Will, Ben, Ivisic. Feel a whole lot more confident in our rim-protection with Morez and Ivisic just so skilled offensively and provides exactly what this team needs on that end. Great to have two bigs like that.
 
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#303      
phats22
Heisenbobble said:
It seems like these guys really enjoy playing together and have bonded quickly. Is that accurate from your take?
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i also was impressed with how resilient the team was. this felt like the kind if lead we couldn't defend or sustain in the last couple of years but this team calmly had an answer each time Arkansas made a run or tried to gain momentum. super impressive early in the year
 
#304      
Brosky
HensonHall71 said:
Our best lineup is
KJ
Kylan
Will
Morez
Tomi

At some point we should just start that lineup. We don’t need Ben’s shooting as much with Riley on the floor and we don’t need Tre’s rebounding
with Morez on the floor- this 5 is our best complement of offense, defense and rebounding
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What about Ben? He's absolutely lethal when he gets an open look. His fundamentals are also solid.
 
#306      
HensonHall71
Brosky said:
What about Ben? He's absolutely lethal when he gets an open look. His fundamentals are also solid.
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He’s a huge liability on defense and while he’s a good shooter he isn’t shooting that much and he’s only taking threes - he’d be great off the bench for a spot up three point shooter he just doesn’t have the all around game to get starter minutes

For those questioning the substitution pattern if you start Morez with Tomi - you don’t have to sub for Morez and Tomi at the same time simply sub Ben in for Morez, then Morez in for Tomi- it’s not hard to make work
 
#307      
AirNeazy
Honestly don't think we have much to worry about wrt to Ivisic leaving to the NBA. Don't really think he has the foot speed to guard at the next level. Think more likely he bounces for a pro career in Europe after his Junior year a la Leron Black.

Anyways, really glad to see the overall EFFORT compared to the Alabama game. People diving, no rebounds bouncing, etc. I think after the Bama game in the second half, Bos found out his role is to bring the dawg to this team and teach the young bucks who are new to CBB. Absolutely love it.
 
#308      
illini510
That's fair but they didn't pay him all that NIL to take minimal shots. It probably has more to do with how he's being utilized in the coach's scheme. Perhaps, the fit isn't totally right but time will tell
 
#309      
Mobi
NarrowJ said:
We won't shoot 48% from 3 across the entire season regardless.

Despite what people who dislike Calipari for many other various reasons might think, they're an extremely well coached group and you can bet they watched some tape on us and knew what was coming- they just couldn't stop it. I just dont think it's accurate to say a team like Arkansas wouldn't be prepared for PnR/P against a team that literally thrives off of it. It doesn't take 3 months of games for coaches to go "oh hey we better stop that PnR" and that's mainly what I wanted to point out, that's all.
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If you watch the first five minutes, obviously they were not quite prepared. Then they made some adjustments to it.
 
#310      
BWA
AirNeazy said:
Honestly don't think we have much to worry about wrt to Ivisic leaving to the NBA. Don't really think he has the foot speed to guard at the next level. Think more likely he bounces for a pro career in Europe after his Junior year a la Leron Black.

Anyways, really glad to see the overall EFFORT compared to the Alabama game. People diving, no rebounds bouncing, etc. I think after the Bama game in the second half, Bos found out his role is to bring the dawg to this team and teach the young bucks who are new to CBB. Absolutely love it.
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Honestly jumping to go pro in Europe is no longer a sound economic decision when he could be making millions in college. A decent comp might be our friend hunter Dickinson. He will play in Europe, but only once he’s done cashing in on NIL.
 
#311      
grue2
AirNeazy said:
Honestly don't think we have much to worry about wrt to Ivisic leaving to the NBA. Don't really think he has the foot speed to guard at the next level. Think more likely he bounces for a pro career in Europe after his Junior year a la Leron Black.
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The only league paying more than NIL is the NBA**. Anyone who can't make the first round of the NBA draft is financially better off sticking around and taking the NIL. Most second round draftees get 2-3 years in the G-league and are gone. Take the extra NIL, and then see if you can get your G-league time too. 99% of the players, even those who go play in Europe end up needing their degree.

** The top ~5 players in Euroleague will make more.
 
#312      
NarrowJ
Mobi said:
If you watch the first five minutes, obviously they were not quite prepared. Then they made some adjustments to it.
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Yes, they came in selling out on the roll and we killed them with our bigs popping out for 3s. This is what I've been saying. You think we've played 7 games and they had no idea we were going to run PnR? Coaches know what we do already, they know as soon as there is film available (ie, game #1). But, the main and really only and entire point here, is that the PnR is a core/fundamental basketball play and isn't like it is a thing we do that's exclusive to us and teams are going to figure it out in January.
 
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#315      
LTUtd
grue2 said:
The only league paying more than NIL is the NBA**. Anyone who can't make the first round of the NBA draft is financially better off sticking around and taking the NIL. Most second round draftees get 2-3 years in the G-league and are gone. Take the extra NIL, and then see if you can get your G-league time too. 99% of the players, even those who go play in Europe end up needing their degree.

** The top ~5 players in Euroleague will make more.
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I agree with most of your post. If the choice is between staying in college and cashing in those NIL checks or going back to Europe, staying in college is a no brainer.

That said, the salaries for the Euroleague stars are fairly decent ones. The 10th biggest contract in the Euroleague is a €2.3M EUR net salary, equivalent to around a $5M USD per year deal in America. However, even if Ivisic would get a Euroleague contract, it would be at best €100-200k euros per year ($200-400K equivalent NIL deal, at the very most). And we know they're getting much more than that in the NCAA. Jakucionis is getting paid $750K per year by Illinois.
 
#316      
grue2
LTUtd said:
I agree with most of your post. If the choice is between staying in college and cashing in those NIL checks or going back to Europe, staying in college is a no brainer.

That said, the salaries for the Euroleague stars are fairly decent ones. The 10th biggest contract in the Euroleague is a €2.3M EUR net salary, equivalent to around a $5M USD per year deal in America. However, even if Ivisic would get a Euroleague contract, it would be at best €100-200k euros per year ($200-400K equivalent NIL deal, at the very most). And we know they're getting much more than that in the NCAA. Jakucionis is getting paid $750K per year by Illinois.
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Thanks for the update on salaries. Here is the post I put together in 2022 about salaries around the world. As observed, it may be a little dated now.

2022 data

Play quality:
The top leagues outside the NBA are something like:
1) Euroleague (A cross cutting of the top teams from the national leagues.),
2) Spain ACB, Turkey BSL
3) [German BBL, Russia VTB], Italy LBA, Israel, France LBA
4) Adriatic, Greek, Australia
5+) China, Japan, Korea, Philippines (Alphabetical; all bad.)

Each line is a significant step up from the lines below it. A rough ordering is given within a line.

Salary guides (compiled from multiple sources, using the most common estimates when sites disagree):
Note that play quality tiers and play pay tiers do not necessarily align.

Pay Tier 1:
China: $7M is the top, 1-3M typical for foreigners, 100k typical if Chinese. Note: Max 1 foreign player on court at any time.

Pay Tier 2:
EuroLeague: $4M top. 2M is a top 10 salary (top 6?). 500-800k is typical.

Pay Tier 3:
Turkey BSL: 2.6M top, 250-450k typical
Russia VTB: 2.5M top, 200-450k typical
Spain ACB: 2M top. 250-500k typical.
Italy LBA: 2M top, 150-350k typical

Pay Tier 4:
Greece: 2.5M top, 60-250k typical (60-100k tend to be local players)
German BBL: 1M top, 100-350k typical
Japan B.League: 1M top, 100-250k typical
Israel: ?? Top, 80-250k typical

Pay Tier 5:
Philippines: 400k top, 100-200k typical
Australia: 400k top, 100k typical (1.7M/team cap)
France LBA: 300k top, 80-200k typical [I'm very surprised at these numbers. Multiple sites agreed.]

I could not find numbers for Korea, or Adriatic (ABA). I thought the ABA paid in the mid tier 3 range.
 
#317      
fuggles
LTUtd said:
I agree with most of your post. If the choice is between staying in college and cashing in those NIL checks or going back to Europe, staying in college is a no brainer.

That said, the salaries for the Euroleague stars are fairly decent ones. The 10th biggest contract in the Euroleague is a €2.3M EUR net salary, equivalent to around a $5M USD per year deal in America. However, even if Ivisic would get a Euroleague contract, it would be at best €100-200k euros per year ($200-400K equivalent NIL deal, at the very most). And we know they're getting much more than that in the NCAA. Jakucionis is getting paid $750K per year by Illinois.
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How is the euro to dollar equivalent 2:1 when the exchange rate is 1:1?
 
#318      
LTUtd
grue2 said:
Thanks for the update on salaries. Here is the post I put together in 2022 about salaries around the world. As observed, it may be a little dated now.

2022 data

Play quality:
The top leagues outside the NBA are something like:
1) Euroleague (A cross cutting of the top teams from the national leagues.),
2) Spain ACB, Turkey BSL
3) [German BBL, Russia VTB], Italy LBA, Israel, France LBA
4) Adriatic, Greek, Australia
5+) China, Japan, Korea, Philippines (Alphabetical; all bad.)

Each line is a significant step up from the lines below it. A rough ordering is given within a line.

Salary guides (compiled from multiple sources, using the most common estimates when sites disagree):
Note that play quality tiers and play pay tiers do not necessarily align.

Pay Tier 1:
China: $7M is the top, 1-3M typical for foreigners, 100k typical if Chinese. Note: Max 1 foreign player on court at any time.

Pay Tier 2:
EuroLeague: $4M top. 2M is a top 10 salary (top 6?). 500-800k is typical.

Pay Tier 3:
Turkey BSL: 2.6M top, 250-450k typical
Russia VTB: 2.5M top, 200-450k typical
Spain ACB: 2M top. 250-500k typical.
Italy LBA: 2M top, 150-350k typical

Pay Tier 4:
Greece: 2.5M top, 60-250k typical (60-100k tend to be local players)
German BBL: 1M top, 100-350k typical
Japan B.League: 1M top, 100-250k typical
Israel: ?? Top, 80-250k typical

Pay Tier 5:
Philippines: 400k top, 100-200k typical
Australia: 400k top, 100k typical (1.7M/team cap)
France LBA: 300k top, 80-200k typical [I'm very surprised at these numbers. Multiple sites agreed.]

I could not find numbers for Korea, or Adriatic (ABA). I thought the ABA paid in the mid tier 3 range.
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Great post.

By the way, to help explain your surprise at the French league numbers, many of the clubs in Europe often play in two different competitions, for example the top German team Bayern Munich plays both in the domestic German league and in the Euroleague. So I assume your German BBL data excludes the teams that participate in European comps and strictly only includes data for local teams that play only in the German league. Same principle probably applies to the French teams, so it shouldn't be too surprising as the only teams that are left without a European tourney (when you remove Euroleague, Eurocup, FIBA Champion League, FIBA EuroCup teams) are the bottom ranking teams in France.

I think Japan should be upgraded to either Tier 3 or somewhere inbetween Tier 2 and Tier 3. The team budgets there have climbed quite a bit in the last few years (the budgets might actually be higher than Euroleague, even if the level of play isn't quite there). It's rumored that they managed to get Yuta Watanabe back to Japan by offering him a yearly $5M salary, which as a top salary would be at the Euroleague level.
 
#319      
LTUtd
fuggles said:
How is the euro to dollar equivalent 2:1 when the exchange rate is 1:1?
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European salaries are usually listed as net salaries, whereas NBA salaries (and I assume NIL as well?) are before taxes.
 
#320      
grue2
LTUtd said:
European salaries are usually listed as net salaries, whereas NBA salaries (and I assume NIL as well?) are before taxes.
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I wonder if my sources were a mix of pre-tax, and net. I remember reading that the Greek players needed second jobs to make ends meet. If they were really making 60k post tax at the low end, that would seem to cover the bills. Living in Greece is cheap.
 
#321      
LTUtd
grue2 said:
I remember reading that the Greek players needed second jobs to make ends meet.
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As someone who's followed European basketball for quite a long time, that doesn't sound like true. That said, it's not uncommon that basketball players in Europe would start developing businesses and preparing for their post-playing career ahead of time while they still play professional basketball. And you're right that a 60k euro net salary in South or East Europe is very, very good as far as living expenses go.
 
#322      
WyattEarp
NarrowJ said:
We won't shoot 48% from 3 across the entire season regardless.

Despite what people who dislike Calipari for many other various reasons might think, they're an extremely well coached group and you can bet they watched some tape on us and knew what was coming- they just couldn't stop it. I just dont think it's accurate to say a team like Arkansas wouldn't be prepared for PnR/P against a team that literally thrives off of it. It doesn't take 3 months of games for coaches to go "oh hey we better stop that PnR" and that's mainly what I wanted to point out, that's all.
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Well, yeah you certainly wouldn’t think so.

As you mentioned…nearly everyone runs PnR & ballscreen heavy offenses these days…so Cal blaming it on “lack of practice time”…..huh? He uses that excuse frequently btw. He used the same excuse when he lost to a zone defense. This is one of those things Kentucky fans finally had enough of. Failing to prepare is on him.

As to ball screens… Like you said…it’s integral/basic to basketball. There’s only so many ways to guard a ball screen.

YOU COULD ARGUE…You can’t take away everything. & Yes, we knocked down shots and made ‘em pick their poison. That part of Cal’s presser rationale was at least valid. It’s also true that our offensive spacing is good…maybe even better than a lot of teams. So that makes it harder to stop, I suppose. But wouldn’t you think a coach of Cal’s stature could make adjustments better than he does? (I’m not talking about just this game of course.)

No, I dont particularly like John Calipari but he’s no where near the sleaze-bag of a Pitino, for example. I just think he’s always been overrated. I have seen nothing this season to dissuade that opinion.

When he starts using that “we didn’t practice against it excuse…I tune out, man.
Failing to prepare is on him…and it’s on him a lot.

I don’t think Arkansas runs very good stuff on O. His roster construction IS better than Woodson…but not by a ton.
He’s won more games than you can imagine. But now that he can’t rely on out-talenting the other team it just isn’t the same. He obviously struggles at game prep and in game adjustments. His X’s and O’s are pedestrian at best.

Arkansas is still a decent/respectable team; and I’m not trying to take anything away from our victory.
 
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#324      
1970 John
I think some of those he “lost” were gently persuaded to look for other venues for their talents. And Brad is too much of a good guy to make that evident.
 
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