Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (July 2018)

[Greensboro]

And this is in direct opposition to what BmoorIllini was stating. Thus, my confusion. One minute it looks like lump sum and next it looks like rolling.

IlliniDent looks to be counting the school year on the 9, not calendar year

1. Trent Frazier (8/19/16)
2. Damonte Williams (9/9/16)
3. Jeremiah Tillmon (9/9/16)
4. Javon Pickett (9/9/16)
5. Kris Wilkes (9/9/16)
6. Abu Kigbab (9/16/16)
7. Mayan Kiir (10/7/16)
8. Greg Eboigbodin (5/31/17)
9. Matic Vessel (6/11/17)

 

[Sizzler22]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win. You need a system that players believe and fit into. If you are Duke then sure you get all the top 100 players you want because all you do is win. Let’s not forget that Duke and Kansas have both been embarrassed by teams in the tournament that had players that didn’t sniff the top 100.

 

[JFGsCoffeeMug]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win.

I agree with you that you don't need top 100 players to win. You can have success in individual games and even entire seasons when players and systems fall into place as envisioned. But to win consistently in a conference like the Big Ten? Where other teams are pulling in top 100 players and other coaches are running their own effective systems? To win consistently, we will need both solid talent and solid coaching. The talent on our roster is getting better (imo). I think the coaching has gotten better too (also imo). I guess we'll see what kind of results we get in the next few years.

 

[t7nich]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win. You need a system that players believe and fit into. If you are Duke then sure you get all the top 10 players you want because all you do is win. Let’s not forget that Duke and Kansas have both been embarrassed by teams in the tournament that had players that didn’t sniff the top 100.

FIFY. You had an extra digit in there.

 

[Sizzler22]

I agree with you that you don't need top 100 players to win. You can have success in individual games and even entire seasons when players and systems fall into place as envisioned. But to win consistently in a conference like the Big Ten? Where other teams are pulling in top 100 players and other coaches are running their own effective systems? To win consistently, we will need both solid talent and solid coaching. The talent on our roster is getting better (imo). I think the coaching has gotten better too (also imo). I guess we'll see what kind of results we get in the next few years.

I agree with this, I think Gonzaga is a great example of winning with not a ton of high rated players out of high school. Same system for years and great coaching. I think we will get to a point where we are winning, not going to get the right players until you win.

 

[ChiefIllini]

To win consistently, we will need both solid talent and solid coaching. The talent on our roster is getting better (imo). I think the coaching has gotten better too (also imo).

I struggle a lot with this thought. How bad was the talent during the Groce years? Recruiting websites would make you think we should've been a S16 team. Now, I get we only signed two top 50 guys (JCL and Black), but our classes were as follows:
2012: (nobody)
2013: 13th nationally, 2nd in B1G
2014: 56th, 8th (with Black)
2015: 15th, 2nd (with JCL)
2016:110th, 14th (just TJL)

Now I understand the arguments: bad scouting on our end, poor fits, lack of PG's, dismissals/transfers, etc. and I also understand we are used to recrutiing better players (well at least in the 80s/90s/early 00s) but to say we didn't have talent is wrong. Not saying if we had [Insert your 'best' coach here] that he would have lead us to the promise land, but as you say, we needed solid coaching as well.

It's hard for me to say talent was the major issue why Groce failed at UIUC. I doubt it'll be the reason if BU fails. He might not land top 25 kids, but getting one or two top 100 guys each class (and getting them to stay) is plenty. But that said, I want BU to get who he wants, not what the star amount next to their name is.

 

[sacraig]

I struggle a lot with this thought. How bad was the talent during the Groce years? Recruiting websites would make you think we should've been a S16 team. Now, I get we only signed two top 50 guys (JCL and Black), but our classes were as follows:
2012: (nobody)
2013: 13th nationally, 2nd in B1G
2014: 56th, 8th (with Black)
2015: 15th, 2nd (with JCL)
2016:110th, 14th (just TJL)

Now I understand the arguments: bad scouting on our end, poor fits, lack of PG's, dismissals/transfers, etc. and I also understand we are used to recrutiing better players (well at least in the 80s/90s/early 00s) but to say we didn't have talent is wrong. Not saying if we had [Insert your 'best' coach here] that he would have lead us to the promise land, but as you say, we needed solid coaching as well.

It's hard for me to say talent was the major issue why Groce failed at UIUC. I doubt it'll be the reason if BU fails. He might not land top 25 kids, but getting one or two top 100 guys each class (and getting them to stay) is plenty. But that said, I want BU to get who he wants, not what the star amount next to their name is.

I tend to agree with you. I don't think talent was the sole factor or even the most important. We had enough that we should have been in the upper half of the B1G perennially. Our bigger problems were the gaping hole at PG and overall bad coaching.

 

[Obelix]

Ayo says hi

On the contrary, Ayo himself has said that his goal is to play one year in college and then go to the league. His goal is to get to the league asap, not to stay "build" a program, which takes time.

Top recruits want to quickest path to the NBA, most see it through blue bloods and top tier programs, some can be convinced to do it through lesser programs getting the advantage of more playing time or less competition at their position or some association with coaching staff. The better recruiters can convince them to take that path. But just because a high ranked recruit (not sure if Ayo fits "top" recruit classification) chooses Illinois, it does not mean that he wants to "build" a program. As per my post, I have met many recruits throughout the year, I have never met a top recruit that has said that he wants to go school X, Y or Z because he wants to "build" their program, and if someone says it, it would be hogwash.

Building a program is often "coach speak" or "fan speak" that is hardly a priority for top recruits. If a coach ever says "I want to build a program in one year" and then leave for a better one (or the NBA), people would laugh at that statement. Same with top recruits. It is actually ironic that the person who the original post attributed that statement to is Bill Self, a coach who I really like, but whose career moves and goals were less about building a program and more towards moving the ladder towards the next level, an established blue blood.

 

[TCTORNADO]

We have 1 top 100 player this year. Never had that few since RSCI started 20+ years ago.

 

[Obelix]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win. You need a system that players believe and fit into. If you are Duke then sure you get all the top 100 players you want because all you do is win. Let’s not forget that Duke and Kansas have both been embarrassed by teams in the tournament that had players that didn’t sniff the top 100.

Just because someone won the lottery, it does not make your chances of winning the lottery any better. Just because a school won a particular game, it does not mean that their long term winning prospects or winning history are better than Duke, UK, or Kansas. Just because a lower ranked player had more success than some other higher ranked player, it does not mean that lower ranked player have a better chance of succeeding than highly ranked players. In both cases, the opposite is true.

 

[Obelix]

It is easy to go "woe is me" but Coach Underwood has said for years how his dream job is Illinois.

Actually, the first time he publicly said that is when he got the Illinois job.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win. You need a system that players believe and fit into. If you are Duke then sure you get all the top 100 players you want because all you do is win. Let’s not forget that Duke and Kansas have both been embarrassed by teams in the tournament that had players that didn’t sniff the top 100.

This take is true either way, but I would be much more enthusiastic about it if you replaced the number 100 with 50.

 

[Ratskin]

Actually, the first time he publicly said that is when he got the Illinois job.

I saw an old interview where he stated publicly that he liked IL.

 

[Selfcon4]

I saw an old interview where he stated publicly that he liked IL.

Supposedly he told a lady at Western Illinois the UI was his dream school back when he worked there. Not sure I believe it...but that is his words.

 

[Obelix]

Supposedly he told a lady at Western Illinois the UI was his dream school back when he worked there. Not sure I believe it...but that is his words.

Underwood said that he he liked the Illinois job since he was at Western Illinois. He said that many times. Obviously, he said that after he had got the Illinois job.

 

[illinitiger]

Kind of sad we might need start a OV spreadsheet much like the scholarship one lol

Since (in a perfect world) you are only trying to bring in 3-4 players a year, with 12 officials per year, I would think a 30% chance is fair. Unless, you squirrel them away for years like this past one.

based on the april rolling list....we are 6 for 10 on our recent past OVs which is good

 

[Sizzler22]

Just because someone won the lottery, it does not make your chances of winning the lottery any better. Just because a school won a particular game, it does not mean that their long term winning prospects or winning history are better than Duke, UK, or Kansas. Just because a lower ranked player had more success than some other higher ranked player, it does not mean that lower ranked player have a better chance of succeeding than highly ranked players. In both cases, the opposite is true.

(In the most positive of tones) This is the least surprising response from you....

 

[TCTORNADO]

based on the april rolling list....we are 6 for 10 on our recent past OVs which is good

More remarkable is that we got 2 guys to commit who never visited at all.

 

[EJ33]

unpopular opinion, you don’t need top 100 players to win. You need a system that players believe and fit into. If you are Duke then sure you get all the top 100 players you want because all you do is win. Let’s not forget that Duke and Kansas have both been embarrassed by teams in the tournament that had players that didn’t sniff the top 100.

Please cite a single example of a B1G team that consistently makes the NCAA tourney without a single Top 100 player on the roster.

 

[Sizzler22]

Please cite a single example of a B1G team that consistently makes the NCAA tourney without a single Top 100 player on the roster.

I clearly said players, multiple. And where did I say anything about the big ten, or ncaa tourney, I said win, that’s it. You’re assuming my post was revolving around Illinois basketball and not any other program.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Please cite a single example of a B1G team that consistently makes the NCAA tourney without a single Top 100 player on the roster.

Haha, well MSU only had 8 top 100 players last year.

 

[Chukwuwumba]

, Ayo himself has said that his goal is to play one year in college and then go to the league. His goal is to get to the league asap, not to stay "build" a program, which takes time.d.

Agreed. I think also think this is one barometer that should be passed for Adam Miller to commit here. If ayo goes one or two then in nba, shows ill can put guys in league. Different positions, doesn’t matter. Then rinse repeat with Miller and next guy.

 

[Tevo]

I think we now have an excellent coaching staff; the best since the Self. Eventually, that will pay dividends.
...
I think it will take a few years of gradual development to get back to relevance...

This is what I've been saying for years. While it's POSSIBLE to get a rare Top 20 guy to commit to an otherwise unimpressive-looking team, the most reliable way to attract better players is to coach up the ones you got, make the team better, and beat teams you're "not supposed to" beat. A couple players with surprising development, and a year or two of impressive play will make everything easier.

But you know, it ain't easy out-coaching and/or out-developing teams led by Izzo, Beilein, Painter, Holtmann, Miller, etc. Underwood needs to prove the talking heads right who said he was one of the best hires of the year in 2017.

 

[illinitiger]

We have 1 top 100 player this year. Never had that few since RSCI started 20+ years ago.

i though AJ was top 100?

 

[othawhitemeat]

I thought Damonte was top 50 before getting injured. If he gets back to his athletic peak, I hope he can show that ranking. Also, was Tevian with some rankings was around 80? However, we do need more talent for sure. Hope Coach Underwood can reel some in. Also, Frazier was borderline 100 and Kane is a year early so ranking is probably not accurate. Wisconsin was able to win without many top 100 talent, West Virginia at time with Huggy has done it, Bruce at KSU, Beilein at Michigan has done it, and Coach at South Carolina. Should it be the model to follow? No, but it can be done. We did get some talent in Ayo, Jones, and Kane in his first class. I think Feliz is a sneaky pickup and Griffin has a chance to be an underrated skilled player while being average athletically.