Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2018)

[Dbell1981]

Your post loses some steam when you suggest that there is personal dislike for the coach, and that no one should find any concern in his recruiting. Yes, it's early days, but , when you've been down for so long, you can't blame anyone for being somewhat impatient. I think everybody on this board wants BU to succeed, and still has hope given he is new to the program.

Aside from that, I find this one comment in your post is an interesting, and perhaps, valid point. It is hard to get players to play together and be focused when they feel they are not long for the team, and that may have been associated with results. We've all heard about locker room discontent, and perhaps this was part of the schism...those who bought in, and those who felt they were ready to move on.

Fair enough points. The same ones who weren't happy with the hire in the first place are mostly the ones griping about things now. The few that said they didn't like the hire but will wait before casting judgement are judging a little prematurely in my opinion.

People put way more emphasis on the measurables like playing time or distance from home.

Players need to want to play for the coach. It's a personal thing and pretty hard to quantify. And if there's a problem it's hard to identify. And hard to improve on although for some coaches a longer-term relationship may help.

I completely agree with this. That is why he needs time to get his roots in the soil. The kids transferring out he had no previous relationships with before he was the Illini coach. Combine that with a complete 180 in culture and the way things are done and you get what we had last year. Once he starts getting kids here he has recruited longer than 6months to a year will most likely know a lot more about his expectations and coaching style. I think in time we end up with a scrappy !!! in your face team for 40 straight minutes. That beats Groce ball all day long!!! I'm happy with the style coach brings. Now we just need some blue collar, take no !!!! recruits to make this happen. EJ was a perfect fit for that but we missed. We will get them in time. The fact that Underwood is at Illinois and not Ok St. could hurt us with recruits like Timme this year. If he can find guys like him as freshmen and sophomores and not leave the school he starts landing these recruits. We need stability here to start landing more top end talent. We haven't had that in a while. Groce was on the hot seat his last 2 years and I'm sure last years record and turnover is being used against us at nauseam by other coaches "and our own fan base". Let him prove some people wrong and the recruiting will pick up. Its gonna be brutal but I've got faith.

 

[IllFanInMi]

Idk the answers, BU and the staff forgot more than most of us know about recruiting.

For me, no particular order

* Missing on in state talent/guys with state ties. Blue Bloods ok, but to the Iowa State’s and slimy Clownzo?
* Running out of OV’s
* The amount of offers we cast out like we are the drunk guy working the bar late night
* The OV’s to top 50 guys and constant misses. Feels like the girl that looked like a 10 across the room, but had no teeth when you got to her, so you bolted.
* Various other new coaches & staffs who have had recruiting success without winning and with likely less reputable assistants
* Poor fall recruiting/inability to ink targets
* Player defections/perhaps selling a bad bag of goods to them, or poor evaluations of them
* Scramble mode spring recruiting, which likely impacts your traction for the next fall and beyond.
* Did I miss anything?

Look, I love Illinois basketball and want BU to succeed and do great things. I’m not going to judge him on X’s and O’s yet; he had to abandon his system frequently last year due to the roster he inherited and lack of time to implement and coach the guys up on all he wants to do. Not sure those factors won’t come into play again this year, so won’t critically judge him until he has more time.

I remain hopeful and in his court, commend him and the staff for pulling together a class with great potential. BUT, due to the above something is just “off” to me and I hope it smooths out and this board turns back to happy and hopeful!

 

[Obelix]

People put way more emphasis on the measurables like playing time or distance from home.

Players need to want to play for the coach. It's a personal thing and pretty hard to quantify. And if there's a problem it's hard to identify. And hard to improve on although for some coaches a longer-term relationship may help.

Absolutely agree, other than being a blue blood, that is indeed the most important factor although every recruit is different. Recruiting right now may not be going well and we have not shown the ability to close, but it is premature to declare that our coaching staff can't develop those relationships longer-term. I am actually more hopeful that BU and staff will change recruiting momentum very soon (maybe we are on a bad streak) than I am in favor of changing our approach towards lesser recruits that others have advocated. It is a valid argument just that I am not a believer in the viability of establishing consistent success at UI (not a season or two) without very strong recruiting.

 

[Andy Kaufman]

Does anyone think BU's personality is playing a part in the non-recruitment of players? I've never met them man but he comes off as kind of humorless and really intense.

 

[Obelix]

* Missing on in state talent/guys with state ties. Blue Bloods ok, but to the Iowa State’s and slimy Clownzo?
* Running out of OV’s

I think many underestimate Cuonzo Martin. He may not be the best game coach, but he has always been a good recruiter. Even if our recruiting improves radically (which I hope), we will still face strong competition from Martin.

On OVs, I have no problem with the Fall offers, if you have the chance with some really talented and highly ranked recruits and you have made short lists (e.g., Liddell, Oscar T, Shannon) you take that chance every single time and try to close. The part that I find more problematic is missing on Fall recruiting and the scrambling to find recruits and fill scholarships in Spring/Summer wasting some valuable OVs on lesser targets.

 

[IlliniBrave75]

Big Ten Basketball Coaches Rank the Best Jobs in the Conference

7. Illinois (62) – The Illini haven’t won a national title, but went to the championship game in 2005 and have been to four other Final Fours – in 1949, 1951, 1952 and 1989. There’s a decent tradition, but the fans are a little unrealistic with regards to expectations. Bill Self was successful in his brief stint, Bruce Weber went to six NCAA tournaments from 2003-12, but John Groce struggled in his time in Champaign.

Where they win: “Location. Chicago has a ton of players.” – Big Ten head coach

The knock: “The fan base has no clue – such unrealistic expectations. They are nuts. Plus, Chicago has players – but it might take a little more than a scholarship to get a lot of them.” – Big Ten assistant coach


https://watchstadium.com/news/big-t...nce-10-11-2018/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[ugottabjoshinme]

The knock: “The fan base has no clue – such unrealistic expectations.

https://watchstadium.com/news/big-t...nce-10-11-2018/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Well, looks like they got at least one thing right.

 

[IllFanInMi]

I think many underestimate Cuonzo Martin. He may not be the best game coach, but he has always been a good recruiter. Even if our recruiting improves radically (which I hope), we will still face strong competition from Martin.

On OVs, I have no problem with the Fall offers, if you have the chance with some really talented and highly ranked recruits and you have made short lists (e.g., Liddell, Oscar T, Shannon) you take that chance every single time and try to close. The part that I find more problematic is missing on Fall recruiting and the scrambling to find recruits and fill scholarships in Spring/Summer wasting some valuable OVs on lesser targets.

I actually would’ve supported a Cuonzo hire due to his recruiting. I know this will come with a lot of opposition from this board, but can you imagine the roster we would have right now if he got this job? Would make up for a lot of supposed X and O flaws. I could care less about our coaches “reputation”, as long as he doesn’t get the program in trouble of course.

 

[TCTORNADO]

Does anyone think BU's personality is playing a part in the non-recruitment of players? I've never met them man but he comes off as kind of humorless and really intense.

He's very good at Facetime.

 

[scsaints23]

One glimmer of hope is former players' positive comments regarding Coach Underwood. I always feel that you have to give a coach 5 years, regardless of sport, to prove themselves. Obviously, we are only headed into year 2.

Mark Smith not working out certainly has had an impact in the STL area. The NCAA investigation and BU's ties to Lamont Evans are undoubtedly being used against him by certain parties. That's fairly typical tactics in the world of recruiting.

But, BU said from day one that he doesn't care about the number of stars next to a recruits name. As a 40+ year fan of Illini hoops, I say give him 5 years and judge him at the end of that period. The program can't go much lower in terms of W's and L's. Let the man execute his plan. He might just surprise us with a Frank Martin type run at South Carolina. Martin's first two years at SC were below .500. Year 3 was essentially .500, year 4 was 26 wins and NIT. Year 5 he took them to the Final Four. Last year due to graduations and early entry they fell back to .500. Living in SC, I have had a front row seat to Martin's plan. He ran guys off his first two years that weren't "tough" and didn't fit his system or meet his demands. It appears to me that BU is following the same blueprint. Obviously, they both learned from Huggins. My expectation is that over time we will see a Huggy Bear type of ball, intense in your face D being the one constant. Huggy has had good runs in the Big Dance, often followed by mediocre seasons. But, it is always entertaining ball.

 

[IllFanInMi]

Big Ten Basketball Coaches Rank the Best Jobs in the Conference

7. Illinois (62) – The Illini haven’t won a national title, but went to the championship game in 2005 and have been to four other Final Fours – in 1949, 1951, 1952 and 1989. There’s a decent tradition, but the fans are a little unrealistic with regards to expectations. Bill Self was successful in his brief stint, Bruce Weber went to six NCAA tournaments from 2003-12, but John Groce struggled in his time in Champaign.

Where they win: “Location. Chicago has a ton of players.” – Big Ten head coach

The knock: “The fan base has no clue – such unrealistic expectations. They are nuts. Plus, Chicago has players – but it might take a little more than a scholarship to get a lot of them.” – Big Ten assistant coach


https://watchstadium.com/news/big-t...nce-10-11-2018/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Unrealistic expectations compared to who or what program? I mean expecting us to be a Blue Blood, or near Blue Blood, OF COURSE. But to expect better than where we have been, especially last year record wise, not playing in the post season for how many years in a row now. It’s relative and just because some guy has a title like that doesn’t mean he knows his butt from a hole in the ground.

 

[Obelix]

What would you consider to be very strong recruiting? I think that’s the part people have a difficult time seeing eye to eye on.

Good question. At the foundation of it is consistency and roster construction, not leaving positional gaps. Then, obviously talent that extends beyond just rankings although there is a high correlation with rankings. On the current roster, I think our backcourt is very talented but I think our frontcourt lacks both talent and depth, especially on our inside play (both offense and defense). Without that consistency and complementariry, we are running the risk of wasting our backcourt talent (which will not last forever).

As far as what I consider very good recruiting for Illinois, one needs to look no further than the 1997-2003 period. Consistent talent with some star power, no positional gaps, strong complementary pieces but not reaching too deep into hidden gem territory. Look at the roster during our E8 run. Guard play (Frankie, Bradford, etc. ), strong wings/forwards (Sergio, Cook, Lucas), and strong inside play Marcus, Arch, Damir). Look at Self's recruiting that led to 2005 F4.. Exceptional guards (Dee, Deron, Luther), very strong wings/forwards (Luther, Roger, Randle -- despite injury), strong but not exceptional inside play (Augie, Ingram). But Self also had CV to further build inside depth. Had he stayed, I honestly think that is building a NC team through recruiting, and we still came so close (and give credit to Bruce for coaching, not recruiting).

IMO that is the standard for recruiting excellence at UI and is still doable and viable although it does require very strong recruiter as a HC.

 

[Calvin]

Does anyone think BU's personality is playing a part in the non-recruitment of players? I've never met them man but he comes off as kind of humorless and really intense.

Perception is mostly a function of results. Winning cures all, or in this case, landing an elite player. Seeing a bunch of A-listers pass is depressing, and simply reminds us how far we dropped off in the Groce years.

Recruiting has gotten more competitive, and more drawn out in the time I've been a fan. I think back to Self. He was amazing as a recruiter, but so-so as a coach. I think his ability to construct a roster covered his weaknesses well though. Groce was an excellent recruiter, but couldn't coach it up. In fact, I think he coached down. Underwood is known as a great coach, but 2019 early results combined with the roster he inherited have us wondering what the heck is going on (me included).

Ultimately, the only thing that's going to matter is if he can win with his recruits. If the holdover issue was lack of buy-in, we will find out this year, because we will be prettier, more competitive, and should move up significantly in BIG despite being young. We also have some high ceiling guys, and wouldn't it be fantastic if one of them breaks out in the next couple seasons and heads to the pros? Sure makes recruiting talk better.

I agree 100% with the need for good recruiting to be nationally relevant, but I have a bit of a different perspective in whether that can be built up and improved upon. Also, you don't need A-list talent to make the tourney. The teams who do that have guys who don't quit, and coaches who don't quit. I think we'll see a lot more of that this season, even if the elite teams like Gonzaga give us a beat down.

Over-analyzing every recruiting miss like we should have won it if we just did X, seems pointless to me. Learn what you can and move on. It's a lot like life in that way.

 

[coryfor3]

Well, looks like they got at least one thing right.

Strongly disagree. We don't have unrealistic expectations because all we expect is that the program get back to what it was in the 80s, 90s, 2000s. A consistent winner with national title contender years mixed in. The program has decades of actually being where our expectations are currently.

 

[Hoppy2105]

It's not a matter of strategy, you are not going to beat opponents in recruiting with strategy. It is about the ability to close, that has been the problem. The staff has done a good job getting prospects to show interest and even make short lists. The difficulty has been closing. And while some highly ranked prospects have been in top 50 (e.g., Liddell, Oscar T) there have been a quite a few recruits in the top 50-150 range even last year that we still could not close. Our targeting and strategy have been fine, I do not think there is a problem with that.

Most of the heavy lifting in closing the deal is with the head coach. Obviously, this is a results oriented business, we are not closing the deal. What exactly is BU doing wrong? I have no idea, I am not on recruiting visits. If it is something related to tactics, it can change and maybe our recruiting fortunes drastically improve soon (which is what I hope). If it is something related to personality (creating that comfort level of trust and closeness) that would be more difficult to change.

Can you reconcile these two posts for me? In one you say there is no strategy but in the other you say a change of tactics could help.

Being in the military, this actually could make sense but I want to see what you mean before I put forth my interpretation.

For instance, if the words “strategy” and “tactic” are both synonymous with “technique” then it is contradictory. But I see it in a different way and am curious how you meant it.

 

[sacraig]

Big Ten Basketball Coaches Rank the Best Jobs in the Conference

7. Illinois (62) – The Illini haven’t won a national title, but went to the championship game in 2005 and have been to four other Final Fours – in 1949, 1951, 1952 and 1989. There’s a decent tradition, but the fans are a little unrealistic with regards to expectations. Bill Self was successful in his brief stint, Bruce Weber went to six NCAA tournaments from 2003-12, but John Groce struggled in his time in Champaign.

Where they win: “Location. Chicago has a ton of players.” – Big Ten head coach

The knock: “The fan base has no clue – such unrealistic expectations. They are nuts. Plus, Chicago has players – but it might take a little more than a scholarship to get a lot of them.” – Big Ten assistant coach


https://watchstadium.com/news/big-t...nce-10-11-2018/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The line about unrealistic expectations smacks of Izzo still being upset about his buddy Bruce being fired. No one thinks we should immediately be the next Kentucky. I think it's reasonable to say we ought to be top 3 or 4 in the conference almost every year, though. We all just want the coach that gets us back to that point.

It also sounds like they interviewed a handful of coaches and are treating that as gospel.

Meh. Sports journalism is pretty weak these days. Maybe it always was?

 

[Obelix]

I actually would’ve supported a Cuonzo hire due to his recruiting. I know this will come with a lot of opposition from this board, but can you imagine the roster we would have right now if he got this job? Would make up for a lot of supposed X and O flaws. I could care less about our coaches “reputation”, as long as he doesn’t get the program in trouble of course.

I think Cuonzo is not as good as Illini fans made him appear to be prior to the search (during Groce's last year discussion) but not as bad as Illini fans claim he is now after going to Mizzou.

But I do not think it is important to revisit who people wanted back then. We ended up with BU and that is what matters, that is reality. Criticism and praise will be based on how he does. I do not buy that fans/posters have anything "personal" against BU. The vast majority of fans do not know BU personally, at best they may have met him at an event. There is no fan, at least that I know of, that would not be absolutely ecstatic is BU had long term success and elevated Illinois as B1G and contender and beyond.

 

[TopOtheKey]

I’ve read this recruiting thread with much interest and an open mind. My take with a bit of experience: My daughter was recruited and played D1 basketball. Well, recruited 13 years ago. Not same as men or certainly this high level but our mindset is still fresh as we evaluated the offers. And importantly, asked coaches a lot of tough and a couple of times potentially embarrassing questions.

I believe that current recruits have to look critically at BU’s in game actions from last year as an enormous negative that, presently, has no positive offset. I do believe it was calculated but unfortunately he did seem to “lose it” at times. BU talked about “fighting for the culture” last year and as recent as last week. I take that as code for “I had to whip them to be competitive” Players that stayed, Trent, etc., likely felt the love enough at other times and were comfortable staying. None of us or importantly, recruits, have seen that offset either in love or wins.

IMO, until BU tames his inner beast on TV we will continue to lose out on kids and families who may not wish to put up with it. Bobby Knight is the extreme analogy, one of the greatest coaches but an !!! of a man. Very few would knowingly put up with it. But he was a perennial winner so enough top players did. BU and Illini are not there... Some can talk about soft kids if they wish but given the choice of options where you believe (and have no countervailing evidence) that one school has a nasty game time coach, which do you choose?

Is this the key issue? Don’t know. But it has to be a major factor.

 

[Obelix]

Can you reconcile these two posts for me? In one you say there is no strategy but in the other you say a change of tactics could help.

Being in the military, this actually could make sense but I want to see what you mean before I put forth my interpretation.

For instance, if the words “strategy” and “tactic” are both synonymous with “technique” then it is contradictory. But I see it in a different way and am curious how you meant it.

I will certainly try

In the first post I talk about recruiting strategy in the context of what other posters have criticized, specifically targeting specific range of players, the OVs we had scheduled in the fall with highly ranked stars, who are our first priorities, geographic coverage, etc. I really do not think that that there is anything wrong with our recruiting strategy. Even the problem with OVs and Spring recruiting, it is not a matter of intended strategy, it is the result of not being able to close in the Fall.

The second post was in response to question/discussion on what we are doing/not doing in the context of "closing" the deal, on OVs and otherwise after recruits show interest. I have no idea, because I am obviously not part of the conversations/interactions. If it is something as far as tactics (conversations, presentations, things that we stress, things that we do not emphasize) past the initial point of creating interest, that is easier to fix. If it is something that has to do with personality/bonding/relationship with BU during the visit and interactions once recruits show interest, that would be more difficult to fix although even some aspects of personality can change. Which one it is would be impossible to know.

 

[Elgin7680]

I’ve read this recruiting thread with much interest and an open mind. My take with a bit of experience: My daughter was recruited and played D1 basketball. Well, recruited 13 years ago. Not same as men or certainly this high level but our mindset is still fresh as we evaluated the offers. And importantly, asked coaches a lot of tough and a couple of times potentially embarrassing questions.

I believe that current recruits have to look critically at BU’s in game actions from last year as an enormous negative that, presently, has no positive offset. I do believe it was calculated but unfortunately he did seem to “lose it” at times. BU talked about “fighting for the culture” last year and as recent as last week. I take that as code for “I had to whip them to be competitive” Players that stayed, Trent, etc., likely felt the love enough at other times and were comfortable staying. None of us or importantly, recruits, have seen that offset either in love or wins.

IMO, until BU tames his inner beast on TV we will continue to lose out on kids and families who may not wish to put up with it. Bobby Knight is the extreme analogy, one of the greatest coaches but an !!! of a man. Very few would knowingly put up with it. But he was a perennial winner so enough top players did. BU and Illini are not there... Some can talk about soft kids if they wish but given the choice of options where you believe (and have no countervailing evidence) that one school has a nasty game time coach, which do you choose?

Is this the key issue? Don’t know. But it has to be a major factor.

Seriously, you better tell Duke they have a problem with their coach. BU demeanor has nothing to do with them losing recruits.

 

[Obelix]

Seriously, you better tell Duke they have a problem with their coach. BU demeanor has nothing to do with them losing recruits.

It is all speculation, and really we do not know how recruits perceive BU or Coach K, but even if they were exactly the same as far as personalities, playing for a blue blood like Duke, a perennial national contender, a HOF coach, and the coach of Team USA with his millions of connections certainly has it advantages. Recruits will tolerate a lot more during the recruiting process from Coach K/Duke than they will from Underwood/Illinois.

 

[sacraig]

If a player can't handle a coach riding them (within reason) without hanging their head, then how are they going to handle being down 14 with under 4 minutes to go in the Elite Eight?

Of course, the coach can't be a psychopath, but if a player can't handle a little adversity in the form of tough love, I don't know how well they'll handle adversity in a game.

 

[foby]

The line about unrealistic expectations smacks of Izzo still being upset about his buddy Bruce being fired. No one thinks we should immediately be the next Kentucky. I think it's reasonable to say we ought to be top 3 or 4 in the conference almost every year, though. We all just want the coach that gets us back to that point.

It also sounds like they interviewed a handful of coaches and are treating that as gospel.

Meh. Sports journalism is pretty weak these days. Maybe it always was?

Blame it on blogging.

 

[westcoastillini]

One glimmer of hope is former players' positive comments regarding Coach Underwood. I always feel that you have to give a coach 5 years, regardless of sport, to prove themselves. Obviously, we are only headed into year 2.

Mark Smith not working out certainly has had an impact in the STL area. The NCAA investigation and BU's ties to Lamont Evans are undoubtedly being used against him by certain parties. That's fairly typical tactics in the world of recruiting.

But, BU said from day one that he doesn't care about the number of stars next to a recruits name. As a 40+ year fan of Illini hoops, I say give him 5 years and judge him at the end of that period. The program can't go much lower in terms of W's and L's. Let the man execute his plan. He might just surprise us with a Frank Martin type run at South Carolina. Martin's first two years at SC were below .500. Year 3 was essentially .500, year 4 was 26 wins and NIT. Year 5 he took them to the Final Four. Last year due to graduations and early entry they fell back to .500. Living in SC, I have had a front row seat to Martin's plan. He ran guys off his first two years that weren't "tough" and didn't fit his system or meet his demands. It appears to me that BU is following the same blueprint. Obviously, they both learned from Huggins. My expectation is that over time we will see a Huggy Bear type of ball, intense in your face D being the one constant. Huggy has had good runs in the Big Dance, often followed by mediocre seasons. But, it is always entertaining ball.

the most worthwhile read on this forum in a long time.

 

[jmilt7]

So today is supposedly the day Jason Jitoboh starts his OV, according to Rivals. I guess we will see. Certainly seems like it isn't happening as I have seen no indication that he is coming today. Anyone on this board and on campus looking for him and reporting to us?

I don't mean to be presumptuous in regards to what stuemke5 can and cannot reveal or even to ask him to let us know, but …