Yeah, there's no point in discussing it. People aren't going to agree on it and that's OK.
John Groce at Illinois
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Yeah, there's no point in discussing it. People aren't going to agree on it and that's OK.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
Illi0105
- Chicago, IL
Does Bryce have any of the characteristics that make his brother, Scott, such an alleged slimeball?
Sleepy Floyd
Kicking it with Fat Lever
- Champaign
Yes and does he also talk about his faith all the time making his cheating that much more unbearable?
That's a good question, I see no optimism for the future until thing dos change from top down
Illiniwek06
- N of I-80
Agreed, but this assumes that we are the only school willing to offer him such a raise. Didn't he turn down Depaul for $2M last year?
Yeah, but as bad as Illinois' situation is, it's better than Depaul's.
Big Ten > Whatever conference Depaul is in, and it's a much better platform to advance his career.
Illiniwek06
- N of I-80
For sure. Hopefully this discussion is moot and the ship gets righted next season.
Totally agree regarding Thorne and regarding Abrams, as another poster mentioned. Tough for me to view those as valid excuses.
Black, Nunn, etc. are different, but I still am not sure the outcome for the whole year would be drastically different. As I have mentioned previously, think we would be a bubble team.
There's been no character related black eyes if you exclude all of the character related black eyes. I don't see how you can just hand-waiver over Darius Paul like that. Not to mention that Groce "Creaned" Austin Colbert to open the spot for Darius. I'm in the "Groce gets another year" camp, but your grandstanding is silly. Where are all these coaches saying "if you get beat by them on recruiting, you know they did it fair and square?" The highest recent praise I remember for an Illini coach was when Izzo talked about how he would fly Weber around with him, and everyone went nuts about how much of a jerk Izzo was...
There's no doubt Coach Groce should be back next year. It's really not even worth debating, and if the fools in leadership roles at the university are currently considering a coaching change, they should have their heads examined.
Can anyone imagine the mess that would be made if a coaching search commenced with the DOA in it's current state? It could only end in crushing embarrassment, and the reality is likely that the best guy for the job going forward is the guy currently sitting in the head coach's chair.
The problems of the last couple years have been a combination of horrifically bad luck and institutional issues. The big fish decided not to come here because they didn't want to go to Illinois, not because they didn't want to play for John Groce.
This year was doomed from the start with all the terrible luck that occurred in the summer. In addition to Abrams/Paul/Black/Nunn/et al, I also think the Coleman-Lands injury has had a huge impact, even though he's been able to play. His injury cost him tons of precious lost time, most importantly during the European trip, and I'm sure he's not playing at full strength even though it hasn't been evident on the court. His injury is a very difficult one to come back from.
Despite the record, this looks to me to be the best offensive team Groce has had, and everyone comes back next year, for the most part. Hopefully Abrams can have the impact the coaches expected from him this year(and last year), and hopefully we'll see a matured, healthy Leron Black. Coach will also have the new SFC to recruit to, with the Pickett commitment hopefully a sign of more to come.
I am solidly in Coach Groce's corner. He's got all the attributes you want in a coach, and he's been a great rep for our school. He's enthusiastic, smart, principled and can speak intelligently in front of an audience, something that has not been a given for Illini coaches in recent years. I hope he's our coach for as long as he wants to be.
Can anyone imagine the mess that would be made if a coaching search commenced with the DOA in it's current state? It could only end in crushing embarrassment, and the reality is likely that the best guy for the job going forward is the guy currently sitting in the head coach's chair.
The problems of the last couple years have been a combination of horrifically bad luck and institutional issues. The big fish decided not to come here because they didn't want to go to Illinois, not because they didn't want to play for John Groce.
This year was doomed from the start with all the terrible luck that occurred in the summer. In addition to Abrams/Paul/Black/Nunn/et al, I also think the Coleman-Lands injury has had a huge impact, even though he's been able to play. His injury cost him tons of precious lost time, most importantly during the European trip, and I'm sure he's not playing at full strength even though it hasn't been evident on the court. His injury is a very difficult one to come back from.
Despite the record, this looks to me to be the best offensive team Groce has had, and everyone comes back next year, for the most part. Hopefully Abrams can have the impact the coaches expected from him this year(and last year), and hopefully we'll see a matured, healthy Leron Black. Coach will also have the new SFC to recruit to, with the Pickett commitment hopefully a sign of more to come.
I am solidly in Coach Groce's corner. He's got all the attributes you want in a coach, and he's been a great rep for our school. He's enthusiastic, smart, principled and can speak intelligently in front of an audience, something that has not been a given for Illini coaches in recent years. I hope he's our coach for as long as he wants to be.
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Serious Late
- Peoria via Denver via Ann Arbor via Albuquerque vi
There was some talk about Larry Krystkowiak in the postgame thread, thought it was worth posting here since this is where we are supposed to discuss Groce's future.
First of all, Krystkowiak's first year of going 6-25 at Utah has little to do with him, and much to do with the fact that Utah was transitioning to the Pac-12 the same year. Even when Gary Patterson's TCU Football squad transitioned from the MWC to the Big-12, there was an adjustment period, with back to back losing conference records after joining their new conference. Krystkowiak also had to deal with the fact that the preceding coach (Jim Boylen) was gawd awful. Since taken over the program, Krystkowiak's Utes have won 6, 15, 21 and 26 games. Their conference record has similarly made big jumps each year. He has the pedigree, having won with both Montana and Utah at the college level, as well as stints as assistant and head coach at the NBA level.
He also can point to getting multiple players at the positions most of need into the NBA. Delon Wright (PG) was drafted #20 last year, and all signs suggest his big man, Jakob Poeltl (C), will be a lottery pick this year. There is talent on the team in addition to the names mentioned above as well (Kuzma and Loveridge are my personal favorites). He has work to do still this conference season (currently 2-3), but I would be less than worried about the future of Utah basketball were I a fan and Krystkowiak was in charge.
There is no doubt in my mind that Larry Krystkowiak would be as home run a hire as it gets. That said, there is also no doubt in my mind that he would not even consider entertaining the thought of coming to Illinois. As best I can tell based on a google search, he currently earns about 1.6 million dollars at Utah. He is certainly likely to be in a position to renegotiate that, safe to say he could get 2.5-3 million out of them following this season. Even assuming Illinois were to throw him 3 million+, the likelihood he leaves his current GREAT situation for a reasonable raise, when all indicators suggest he is going to be a hot name for the best programs in the country (and possibly even a shift back to the NBA), leaves me thinking our odds at attracting him to Illinois are about as close to 0% as it gets.
Net point, I just don't see a hot name at a lower tier P5 conference considering Illinois at any point in the near future when they could use Illinois to re-negotiate a bigger deal at their current P5 school. Furthermore, given a couple years, most these coaches are in for much bigger paydays than they would be should they choose to make the small jump to Illinois. Shaka Smart played his hand pretty intelligently, holding out for the big money from Texas. Similarly, Brad Stevens was able to parlay his success at Butler into a head coaching gig with the Boston Celtics.
This is not to suggest we hold onto Groce beyond this year, I still don't know the answer to that question and my personal opinion is we need to do what we can to bring our biggest alum and owner of multiple sports teams (Khan) into the fold moving forward. Whether he botched getting George here or not is semi-irrelevant to me as one mistake does not make a legacy. Our next coach needs either to be the strongest Mid-Major coach out there (Drew? Jacobson?) or an outside the box hire like Krystkowiak was. I would leave that to the board to debate as I am likely not that creative, but getting someone in at this point that is going to quickly resurrect Illini bball to where we believe it should be is going to be no small task given the last decade of basketball. That does not mean we shouldn't try though! Something clearly has to happen, I still think Groce can be a successful college basketball coach, I just have serious reservations whether he can right Illinois' ship or his own coaching career in Champaign. His career likely needs a re-boot at another school as bad as we need a re-boot with a new coach. The ease with which he can be recruited against at this point makes me skeptical he can correct course here at Illinois.
I hope to heck something happens after this year, it is so hard to watch anything relating to Illinois revenue sports these days. Whether it be Groce making internal changes to his staff/coaching philosophy or a change in leadership for the program, it is simply not okay to watch such embarrassing displays of complete ineptitude. Here is hoping we look back on this in a couple years and think "wow, who would have thought the turnaround would come this quickly?!?", but I have a bad feeling it is going to be years before we find ourselves back competing for conference titles and deep runs in the NCAA Tourney.
Good luck and Godspeed Illini Decision makers, we have quite the hill to climb moving forward.
First of all, Krystkowiak's first year of going 6-25 at Utah has little to do with him, and much to do with the fact that Utah was transitioning to the Pac-12 the same year. Even when Gary Patterson's TCU Football squad transitioned from the MWC to the Big-12, there was an adjustment period, with back to back losing conference records after joining their new conference. Krystkowiak also had to deal with the fact that the preceding coach (Jim Boylen) was gawd awful. Since taken over the program, Krystkowiak's Utes have won 6, 15, 21 and 26 games. Their conference record has similarly made big jumps each year. He has the pedigree, having won with both Montana and Utah at the college level, as well as stints as assistant and head coach at the NBA level.
He also can point to getting multiple players at the positions most of need into the NBA. Delon Wright (PG) was drafted #20 last year, and all signs suggest his big man, Jakob Poeltl (C), will be a lottery pick this year. There is talent on the team in addition to the names mentioned above as well (Kuzma and Loveridge are my personal favorites). He has work to do still this conference season (currently 2-3), but I would be less than worried about the future of Utah basketball were I a fan and Krystkowiak was in charge.
There is no doubt in my mind that Larry Krystkowiak would be as home run a hire as it gets. That said, there is also no doubt in my mind that he would not even consider entertaining the thought of coming to Illinois. As best I can tell based on a google search, he currently earns about 1.6 million dollars at Utah. He is certainly likely to be in a position to renegotiate that, safe to say he could get 2.5-3 million out of them following this season. Even assuming Illinois were to throw him 3 million+, the likelihood he leaves his current GREAT situation for a reasonable raise, when all indicators suggest he is going to be a hot name for the best programs in the country (and possibly even a shift back to the NBA), leaves me thinking our odds at attracting him to Illinois are about as close to 0% as it gets.
Net point, I just don't see a hot name at a lower tier P5 conference considering Illinois at any point in the near future when they could use Illinois to re-negotiate a bigger deal at their current P5 school. Furthermore, given a couple years, most these coaches are in for much bigger paydays than they would be should they choose to make the small jump to Illinois. Shaka Smart played his hand pretty intelligently, holding out for the big money from Texas. Similarly, Brad Stevens was able to parlay his success at Butler into a head coaching gig with the Boston Celtics.
This is not to suggest we hold onto Groce beyond this year, I still don't know the answer to that question and my personal opinion is we need to do what we can to bring our biggest alum and owner of multiple sports teams (Khan) into the fold moving forward. Whether he botched getting George here or not is semi-irrelevant to me as one mistake does not make a legacy. Our next coach needs either to be the strongest Mid-Major coach out there (Drew? Jacobson?) or an outside the box hire like Krystkowiak was. I would leave that to the board to debate as I am likely not that creative, but getting someone in at this point that is going to quickly resurrect Illini bball to where we believe it should be is going to be no small task given the last decade of basketball. That does not mean we shouldn't try though! Something clearly has to happen, I still think Groce can be a successful college basketball coach, I just have serious reservations whether he can right Illinois' ship or his own coaching career in Champaign. His career likely needs a re-boot at another school as bad as we need a re-boot with a new coach. The ease with which he can be recruited against at this point makes me skeptical he can correct course here at Illinois.
I hope to heck something happens after this year, it is so hard to watch anything relating to Illinois revenue sports these days. Whether it be Groce making internal changes to his staff/coaching philosophy or a change in leadership for the program, it is simply not okay to watch such embarrassing displays of complete ineptitude. Here is hoping we look back on this in a couple years and think "wow, who would have thought the turnaround would come this quickly?!?", but I have a bad feeling it is going to be years before we find ourselves back competing for conference titles and deep runs in the NCAA Tourney.
Good luck and Godspeed Illini Decision makers, we have quite the hill to climb moving forward.
I was a little surprised to see the Drew Family mentions in this thread. I'd love to see Bryce or Scott at Illinois or Notre Dame eventually, but those seem to be unlikely scenarios -- especially over the short term.
I know I'll be slaughtered for even mentioning his name, but if you want a coach who's capable of getting a quick fix going, don't discount Matt Doherty. He took a moribund Notre Dame program to the NIT final in his lone season there, with mediocre talent. Experience as HC with big-time programs (ND, North Carolina, SMU). Already familiar with Chicago (he went there regulary as ND head coach). IMO, Doherty would be a good fit for either DePaul or Illinois. High-profile with experience in recruiting high stakes.
I know I'll be slaughtered for even mentioning his name, but if you want a coach who's capable of getting a quick fix going, don't discount Matt Doherty. He took a moribund Notre Dame program to the NIT final in his lone season there, with mediocre talent. Experience as HC with big-time programs (ND, North Carolina, SMU). Already familiar with Chicago (he went there regulary as ND head coach). IMO, Doherty would be a good fit for either DePaul or Illinois. High-profile with experience in recruiting high stakes.
I've posted in this thread a few times regarding my thoughts on Groce and his future, but I thought even though we'd lose more games than we'd win, I thought we would still compete. Indy is good, but they aren't 30+ better than us good. To me, this is starting to become like Bruce's last year and I'm picturing Meyers on the bench crying because we're down 20+ to Nebraska. I can appreciate the effort against Ohio State and I can understand losing to a top 5 team on the road with 4/5 of the starters out, but I don't get losing to Nebraska at home or Indy by more than 30. Hopefully, Thorne can give us a boost, but the Purdue game seems like a major outlier right now.
Deleted member 2438
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Psycho 86
Agree 1000%
Agree 1000%
Deleted member 586966
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Don't confuse loyalty to the O&B with loyalty to the head coach. Loyalty and respect are earned, and putting a worse and worse product on the court every year is not a good way to earn it.
Deleted member 586966
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I know it's hard for many to turn on a guy they think is personable, charismatic, and who creates good sound bites, but you have to look past your emotional attachment and ask yourself the question:
If this slide continues, what are the odds Groce can not only stop the bleeding, but survive long enough to make actual progress in this program?
A lot in times in sports, the rough patches condemn you in the court of public opinion and there's no coming back.
CIIF
- Edwardsville
For the amount we were paying, true. Pay $3-4+ million and we can have our pick.
PaytonHighstep
- Downers Grove, IL
I don't believe it's turning on the guy at all. At some point, he has to win games at Illinois and qualify for the NCAA tourney regularly. The question becomes when do we as a fanbase or leadership at the university decide he had long enough to make that happen? There shouldn't be personal feelings involved in that decision one way or the other, it's a results driven business.
I've been critical of his in game coaching and why they do certain things defensively and offensively. I just don't care for the style of basketball. If they win games, I can deal with watching his brand of basketball. I'm on the fence at the moment with Groce and his future as the Illini coach. I also felt he inherited a mess from Weber, but I haven't seen him do much to clean it up since he was hired. He has tried to land those difference makers, he just failed up to this point. I believe one of the keys to him getting the job (game changing recruiter label) is something he has failed to deliver here at Illinois up to this point. I kind of hope he gets a chance to land that 2017 class, because his career could hinge on it. It's a sticky situation right now to say the least.
For those that are worried about recruiting, all I will say is, you pay coaches to recruit and win games. That is a job requirement, you don't hold onto a coach just for recruiting alone or what might happen. This next statement is made in general, not towards Groce. The new guy might come in and be very successful OR the current coach might run it even further into the ground, so I don't believe recruiting is a reason to hold onto a failing coach.
If there was nothing here when Groce came, how is it that team of Weber recruits won more games than any other he has had? The Groce ship is sinking fast. The guy you are loyal to can't coach his way out of a paper bag. You should consider being loyal to the players who deserve better.
How was it that no one wanted this job? I remember being turned down by Shaka Smart and Brad Stevens. Smart held out for one of the biggest athletic programs in college sports, and Stevens took an NBA job. Not as if these guys didn't have options. I think you're being a little dramatic by saying "no one wanted this job".
I've wished for a consistant winning basketball program for more years than I care to recall..It all boils down to the coach. Top tier players are going to play for a Coach/program that give them exposure. I've come to realize that Illinois is not willing to pay what it takes to get that type of coach. Never has and never will..As far as Groce goes he is what he is. I say let it play out. Changing out mid-major coaches ever 4-5 years for sure doesn't work..I've never been a Cub fan or would I ever..but I'm beginning to know how they've felt for 100+years..
It's been said many times that Groce would get a pass for this year as long as the team avoids a complete meltdown, but I think perception plays a big role in it as well. The team gave the fanbase hope after the Purdue win, which skyrocketed expectations, unfairly or not. In order for Groce to keep his job for another year, there needs to be a belief that he did not significantly underachieve with his current roster. The number of wins to achieve that cannot be determined until the end of the season. I've said before that I would rather have some great wins and bad losses, than mediocre wins and so so losses, because it shows the team has a higher ceiling. With that being said, I don't think the fanbase can stomach this because it's seen as false hope. IMO, the fanbase as a whole would have been less critical of the recent losses, if we would have also lost against Purdue.
We have been loyal for four years but we are now in one of the historically worst stretches in Illinois history. Being loyal doesn't mean you have to accept failure unconditionally. If I'm running a business I should just let my manager continue to run it into the ground until I'm bankrupt? It's gotten worse every year. What do you think this "class" is really going to look like when we go 4-14 in the BIG? We all know what excuses are like
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