Yes, and last year's team only underachieved for 2 1/2 games, albeit important ones. They competed extremely well in the B1G before Rice came back.
John Groce at Illinois
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Yes, and last year's team only underachieved for 2 1/2 games, albeit important ones. They competed extremely well in the B1G before Rice came back.
Not me. As far as I'm concerned, you can even leave Abrams out of the equation and we'd still be significantly better with just Thorne and Black around. And while I'd expect a bit of a soph bump in performance from Leron, I'm not assuming any other worldly seasons from either.
If you check Thorne's results from last year at Charlotte, some of his most productive games were against high major teams like PSU and Miami. And we saw what he was capable of in that first half vs Iowa St, too. So there might be some dropoff in B1G games - most players do see their stats drop in conference action - I don't think there's any validity to the assumption that's it would be dramatic.
Or if they just played reasonably to their levels, the improvement in team rebounding and interior defense would be significant and drastically improve the team's chances. The fact that you have to resort to this kind of hyperbolic nonsense is pretty telling about your position here.
I disagree about the expectations for those three. Abrams averaged double figures for two seasons, played defense and didn't turn the ball over much plus he has great leadership skills. He could average fewer points and still be a huge upgrade.
Thorne was averaging 14 and 8 when he was hurt. He was doing it against good teams, too. The game he got hurt, he had 10 and 7 at the half against the number four team in the country at the time. If he gives us 10 and 7 for whole games, we would be much better in the middle. Thorne also allows us to play inside out. He is a threat in the post. Defenses have to respect his post moves. It opens up shooters like Hill, Nunn, and JCL on the wings.
Black was the best player on the team during the summer according to the coaches. If he just rebounds and plays defense, we are much better.
What some fans miss is that it is not just that we don't have those players, it is that it affects the depth so much. Yes, Finke has stepped up and is giving us more than we could have expected to this point. He still struggles with rebounding and defense as he strives to get stronger. Hill has had to move back to the four. JCL has been up and down but shows great potential. It is what is behind them now that hurts.
If we have Thorne, Abrams, and Black, the depth becomes a strength instead of a weakness. We don't have to play Austin. Williams could have redshirted. Morgan just plays spot minutes. Jordan develops in practice and plays when he is ready.
Then you have a rotation of Hill, Nunn, Thorne, Abrams, Black, Finke, JCL, and Tate. Tate is not as exposed since he would only play 5-10 minutes a game. Finke and JCL would be offensive threats off the bench. Our rebounding would be infinitely better as would our defense. You don't automatically have to use Morgan if it is a bad match up. He can play minutes against teams that he has a chance to be successful against. Right now, he has to play. No choice no matter the opponent.
It is not about overrating the three players. It is about getting solid contributions from them which then lengthens our bench. Scoring droughts become fewer since we have real BT ready players coming off the bench. Hill does not have to lead the team in every category which is wearing him down a bit right now, imo. Just an overall better team.
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+1...All of this...more rebounding, more defense, and more options to make adjustments and add some versatility with depth. It isn't how much better than they are against the next man up, it is against the last man in the rotation. With where we are at right now with interior defense and rebounding, just adding Black or Thorne would be huge.
Thorne was a good pickup for Illinois, but you have to take him for who he is. I think it's fair to say that he was the second-best player (behind Pierria Henry) on a losing Charlotte team. I think he finished 5th in rebounding in conference last year, which is very nice and Illinois could use, but he wasn't near the top in any other statistical category, despite his size. He was a solid contributor, and good rebounder, on a bad mid-major team.
I just don't think his resume offers any evidence that he would be a game-changer in the Big Ten. A nice addition to the team, to be sure, and a good rebounder, but not likely to lift Illinois near the top of the conference standings, any more than he lifted the 49ers to the top of the C-USA standings his senior year.
Learn Black is more complicated. If he can get his game under control and always play somewhere near his potential, he can be a game-changer. But, again, that last sentence started with "if".
As I mentioned before, though, there is no question that more healthy players would improve our depth.
I just don't think his resume offers any evidence that he would be a game-changer in the Big Ten. A nice addition to the team, to be sure, and a good rebounder, but not likely to lift Illinois near the top of the conference standings, any more than he lifted the 49ers to the top of the C-USA standings his senior year.
Learn Black is more complicated. If he can get his game under control and always play somewhere near his potential, he can be a game-changer. But, again, that last sentence started with "if".
As I mentioned before, though, there is no question that more healthy players would improve our depth.
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It doesn't matter what Thorne did at Charlotte. All that matters is what he was doing for us. And what he was doing for us was being a stud rebounder, a legit rim protector and a big who we could dump the ball to for either a good post move, a foul or an inside-out game. He was averaging 14 and 8 for us this year so throwing out a bunch of stats from last year is irrelevant right now.
Thorne was hugely important to this team and getting him back at any time would be a HUGE boost. Hopefully it's soon.
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Thorne was a better player here than he was at Charlotte. First, his conditioning was much better. Also, we threw him the ball. He was not an option down there for whatever reason. He worked hard on his post moves and using both hands.
Some guys "get it" late in their careers. Time was running out and he was taking advantage of his opportunity. It is a real shame that he got hurt.
I disagree that he would not have made us a lot better. He was a presence. He could score, especially against one on one defense. And, if the defense collapsed, it would open up out shooters. I think you are really underestimating the effect he would have on this offense, especially after we got Nunn back.
The argument is not that Thorne would have lifted Illinois into the top 25, etc. It is that his presence makes us stronger along with Abrams and Black. Add those three and we have an entirely different team. Even if Thorne put up his Charlotte numbers, which with his better conditioning and post work is not a pipe dream, we are much better with Finke and Morgan behind him. Black gives us the chance to play Hill almost entirely at the three and gives us JCL off the bench for instant offense. Abrams is not a great player but he is infinitely better than what we have.
I have seen no one claim that Thorne is a star or he would personally lift the team. It is a team, and the additions of good players would make us deeper and better. The whole dynamic of the offense and defense and rebounding changes for the better.
I have seen no one claim that Thorne is a star or he would personally lift the team. It is a team, and the additions of good players would make us deeper and better. The whole dynamic of the offense and defense and rebounding changes for the better.
Agree with much of this....1 2 or 3 of these guys added back would improve the team. Abrams, after a year or two of rehab is not "infinitely" better though.
PaytonHighstep
- Downers Grove, IL
Agreed. I think they would be a deeper team and have more lineup options. They still gave up a ton of points with 2 of those 3 in uniform this year. I still question substitution patterns and some coaching decisions by Groce and his staff. For those reasons, I'm not sure how many more wins this team would have with Thorne and Black.
RichBradIllini
- Peoria
The ISU game showed MT was getting comfortable in the system and starting to come around. There were massive changes going on with substitutions, positioning, players learning each other on the floor. It's not like any of these guys had played much with each other.
That was the disappointing thing. It was a sense that the team was starting to come together and could be respectable.
That was the disappointing thing. It was a sense that the team was starting to come together and could be respectable.
Truth. That first half showed our potential. Black was productive too.
All of what Combes said. Absolutely nailed it.
No one is saying Thorne is a star. But Illinois played its best ball when we finally got Hill, Thorne, Nunn together. Unfortunately, it was only a game and a half. Having an inside threat completely changes the offense for the better.
Can you not acknowledge that we would be better with Thorne in the lineup? And likely markedly better with a healthy Abrams and Black playing?
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HoopCity
- Huntsville, AL
I have not heard much lately on their return. khalid Lewis returning tomorrow night, hopefully Big Mike and Leron aren't far behind. Lets win that B1G tournament and slide into the dance !!
+1. I think we'd have gone 10-8 or 11-7 in the B1G and lost 3 non-league games with MT, LB and TA healthy and definitely made the Dance. TA is the lone one who wouldn't be a huge upgrade at his position, though, due to the significance of his injuries. I'm concerned about how much quickness and explosiveness he'll have lost when he returns next year. If he comes back in 2016 and can give us 15 quality mpg, that'd be realistic.
Man. I think I could have cried watching 2 former Illini coaches play #1 vs #2 in one of the greatest season games ever while we have to pretend to be happy with a 2 point loss vs a bubble team.
Hope Groce turns it around. Really do. But I haven't seen anything to say he's the saviour of this program.
Hope Groce turns it around. Really do. But I haven't seen anything to say he's the saviour of this program.
That's exactly where I was prior to injuries and argued about expectations. A realistic goal is to make the tournament, without having to sweat it out on selection Sunday. I though the magic number was reaching 10 wins in B1G, get a 7-9 seed in the tournament. Top 4 in B1G, or even top 5 seed in the tournament will take an infusion of talent beyond what we have today, especially at the positions of need, PG and C. And that even assumes that Black (who is the X factor IMO) finally puts it together (not just recovering from injuries), which is not exactly a given either.
We have to wait to see how the roster shapes up for next year, but these should probably be the expectations for next year. Avoiding the bubble (i.e., last 8) should be the goal for the next 2 years. And that would take an excellent 2017 recruiting class to accomplish in 2017-18 (with Abrams, Thorne, Hill, Nunn, Tate, Mav) all for sure gone (some possibly even earlier). Making the dance, and staying there for 2 consecutive years is not easy given where our program is today. Doable, but not easy IMO.
This. Everyone on this board was ranting how big of a difference maker a guy like Thorne could be just by virtue of having a big body inside who could bang and score down low. He proved he could protect the rim for us as well. Even if Thorne came up against some stiffer competition in the BIG10 and his numbers did dip, you absolutely can't ignore his size. To this day, Groce still drools at Thorne's size and I couldn't agree more. If you look at the ISU game, Jameel Mckay is a really good senior athletic 5 for ISU and you could tell he was in trouble down low against big Mike, no other reason than he was giving up close to 60 lbs. Even looking some of the bigger 5's in the BIG10 like AJ Hammons or Hass, it's not too often they come across someone as big as them with 5 years of strength/conditioning program under their belt. He's a difference maker in that regard alone
Good post. If we can Thorne back sometime soon after the Purdue game. Like a game or two after we could rack up quite a few wins with the schedule we have left.
I doubt that the Thorne that we get in the next few games will be the same player that we had before he was injured. I understand that he has gained weight and his knee will likely not be 100%.
He was in the best shape of his life before the injury. He will help, but I don't see him being the force he was before the knee surgery.
He was in the best shape of his life before the injury. He will help, but I don't see him being the force he was before the knee surgery.
Maybe but regardless he would still be an immense help.
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