John Groce at Illinois

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#526      

DudeAbides

D
DudeAbides
frozenrope9190 said:
And I wouldn't say we've declined for 4 straight years. We started at a pretty low point, overachieved in year 1, performed to our expectations in year 2, and underachieved in year 3. Year 4 is a wash.
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In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
 
#527      

Hoppy2105

H
Little Rock, Arkansas
Hoppy2105
Adnarel said:
For some reason, this culture-based argument doesn't hold traction on this board. "I'm tired of hearing the BW excuse!" is their cry.

With that said, I don't think Tracy carries any of the negative characteristics that BW seemed to impart upon other players of his. I love Tracy's attitude, and I always have.
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I agree about Tracy. If one guy was going to hang around longer than expected yet have no negative impact from the previous culture, it would be him.

And yeah, I won't even say it's Bruce Weber himself or the players he left that are the excuse but literally the culture. I remember a time when it didn't matter how down we got we always thought there was a chance and any opponent was beatable on any day (especially at Assembly Hall). But let's be honest, how many people winced a little and thought "oh, no...it's happening" when Purdue went on their little 6-0 run to take the lead near the end of the first half.

We have been conditioned to fear/think the worst when a bad thing happens. Which is why this board seems to have crazy negative mood swings. But that is a product of our culture for the 6 years or so prior to Groce. John Groce is not a whiner or an excuses kind of guy so if we hold on to him, we will get our culture back...and if the guy can win some games/snag some recruits along with that culture? Well...look out because Illinois will be freakin unstoppable.
 
#528      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Considering the weak closing the prior season with more talent ( ML left), I'd call it a really good turnaround that JG steared. We can quibble whether it was "overachieving" but I think we can agree we had a successful season.
 
#529      

IlliniBrave75

IlliniBrave75
IlliniBrave75
DudeAbides said:
That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected.
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So let me get this straight...EVERYONE expected a team that went 17-15 (6-12 in B1G) that lost 12 of its last 14 games, quit on its coach and lost a starter to the NBA Lottery to go 23-13 (8-10 in the B1G) to come minutes from advancing to the Sweet 16!

Sorry, but I think you're wrong...you can say you expected it all you want, but that is not what the majority expected!
 
#530      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Sure, if you leave out the part about their coach getting fired the season prior.
 
#531      

IAmChrisFarley

I
IAmChrisFarley
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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I didn't expect to make the tourney year 1.
 
#532      

hermie1985

H
hermie1985
combes said:
I agree. Overachieved in year one. Overachieved in year two. Underachieved last year although the best player missed 9 games in the middle. But definitely should have been better.

This year, it is hard to say. Definitely have not overachieved. But underachieved? Probably leans more that way, but it is hard to say for sure with the number of injuries that have destroyed the starting lineup and the depth.

I do think he gets another year, and that will be his win or else year.
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All in on your evaluation year by year. I also agree he gets another year unless a new AD can get a home run hire. Doubt we get that kind of AD.
 
#533      

urbanite

U
urbanite
DudeAbides said:
That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Your personal expectations, then? The team received no votes in the pre-season polls and wasn't even in the first eight out of Lunardi's pre-season bracketology.
 
#534      

Greensboro

Greensboro
Greensboro
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Experience is nice, but it isn't the end all, it is more about talent and how you play. The same group with McLaurin replacing Leonard tanked the year before. I love that group, but the turnaround on most of those guys from the year before was a definite plus year. We were a great shot by Larkin or getting a call and a basket away from making the sweet 16 for the first time since 2005. As it stands we have only made the final 32 one other time since Dee graduated. We have also only has 1 year since ADee that we won more games & if we beat Miami we were tied with best record. That team was playing better basketball at the end of the year (IMO) than any team since Dee and it was about more than player experience. it is also why many on the board at the time wanted to give Groce a lifetime contract.
 
#535      

Serious Late

Serious Late
Peoria via Denver via Ann Arbor via Albuquerque vi
Serious Late
We vastly underachieved in the final year of Weber, which is what ultimately cost him his job. Whether we slightly overachieved or met our mark in the first year of Groce is debatable, but there was easily enough talent on that team to make the NCAA tournament.

That is to say nothing as to Groce's potential moving forward, but year 3 of Groce's tenure was more disappointing than his first year was pleasantly surprising. Years 2 and 4 (to date) are both pretty understandable with their results.
 
#536      

zpfled

Z
Logan Square, Chicago
zpfled
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Really? After the year they had before Groce, the way that team imploded, and then we lost a lottery pick?
 
#537      

zpfled

Z
Logan Square, Chicago
zpfled
Tevo said:
Just out of curiosity, how will he get better? Simply by trying things and seeing if they succeed or fail? By watching other guys? I'm not really psyched about having the head coach have to learn how to be good while coaching our team. Yes, I expect everyone learns from experience, but I'd prefer he already be very good to start with and then hone his craft.
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The same way every coach gets better. Experience. Learning over time.

Good luck getting a polished coach to come to Illinois, especially after firing Groce. Do you remember our last coaching search? Are you familiar with the track record of success that Illinois has with making important athletic hires for the last 15 years?
 
#538      

SoxFanCPA

S
SoxFanCPA
combes said:
I agree. Overachieved in year one. Overachieved in year two. Underachieved last year although the best player missed 9 games in the middle. But definitely should have been better.

This year, it is hard to say. Definitely have not overachieved. But underachieved? Probably leans more that way, but it is hard to say for sure with the number of injuries that have destroyed the starting lineup and the depth.

I do think he gets another year, and that will be his win or else year.
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The team was awfully good without said "best player".
 
#539      

Butkuser

B
Butkuser
frozenrope9190 said:
And I wouldn't say we've declined for 4 straight years. We started at a pretty low point, overachieved in year 1, performed to our expectations in year 2, and underachieved in year 3. Year 4 is a wash.
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Fair dinkum mate.
 
#540      

dmac279

D
dmac279
zpfled said:
The same way every coach gets better. Experience. Learning over time.

Good luck getting a polished coach to come to Illinois, especially after firing Groce. Do you remember our last coaching search? Are you familiar with the track record of success that Illinois has with making important athletic hires for the last 15 years?
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Bingo
 
#541      

DudeAbides

D
DudeAbides
IlliniBrave75 said:
So let me get this straight...EVERYONE expected a team that went 17-15 (6-12 in B1G) that lost 12 of its last 14 games, quit on its coach and lost a starter to the NBA Lottery to go 23-13 (8-10 in the B1G) to come minutes from advancing to the Sweet 16!

Sorry, but I think you're wrong...you can say you expected it all you want, but that is not what the majority expected!
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Maybe not everyone, but the consensus feeling was that we had a tournament team on our hands in Groce's first year.

Weber's last team was far better than their 17-15 record. At the same point during the season as this year we were 15-3 (4-1) and fresh off a big win against Ohio State. We lost 3 straight close games and then beat Michigan State to move to 16-6 (5-4). Around this time, Mike Thomas basically fired Weber without actually firing him. Weber lost control of the locker room and the season spiraled out of control.

I'm not defending Weber as I agreed he needed to go, but his final year was a really good team that should have made the tournament. If you were paying attention, you saw the talent, saw the minutes the juniors and freshmen were getting and knew that they would be far better next year with a fresh start.
 
#543      

illininks

I
Shawnee, KS
illininks
combes said:
I agree. Overachieved in year one. Overachieved in year two. Underachieved last year although the best player missed 9 games in the middle. But definitely should have been better.

This year, it is hard to say. Definitely have not overachieved. But underachieved? Probably leans more that way, but it is hard to say for sure with the number of injuries that have destroyed the starting lineup and the depth.

I do think he gets another year, and that will be his win or else year.
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This +1000

I have been disappointed in a couple of the slump Jan/Feb slumps and ann certainly disappointed in our results this year.

But because of the ridiculous level of injuries and bad luck this year, you can NOT make a decision to fire a head coach. Next year is, however, a 'do or die' year. Theoretically if we get a red-shirt or 2 and field a semi-healthy team, we will have a potential BIG championship contender.

If that does happen (and stress IF) I would support a 4-5 year extension for Groce after 2017.
 
#546      

Foggy Notion

Foggy Notion
San Francisco
Foggy Notion
DudeAbides said:
In year 1, our 8 man rotation consisted of Seniors Paul, Richardson and Griffey (who had played together for 3 years prior), RS Junior Bertrand (same class as the prior 3), Sophomores Abrams, Egwu and Henry and transfer RS Senior McLaurin.

Going into the season, that's 14 total years playing together, 17 total years playing, and 19 total years period. That's a very experienced team and they went 23-13 and made the NCAA tournament, just like everyone expected. I wouldn't call that overachieving at all. That's playing right up to expectations.
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Wrong. After the prior year's meltdown and losing Leonard to the NBA, no one expected them to make the tournament in the preseason.
 
#548      

Foggy Notion

Foggy Notion
San Francisco
Foggy Notion
Tevo said:
Just out of curiosity, how will he get better? Simply by trying things and seeing if they succeed or fail? By watching other guys? I'm not really psyched about having the head coach have to learn how to be good while coaching our team. Yes, I expect everyone learns from experience, but I'd prefer he already be very good to start with and then hone his craft.
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Just out of curiosity, did you expect that Groce was a finished product in the prime of his coaching career when we hired him at the ripe old age of 40?
 
#550      

illinitiger

I
illinitiger
illininks said:
This +1000

I have been disappointed in a couple of the slump Jan/Feb slumps and ann certainly disappointed in our results this year.

But because of the ridiculous level of injuries and bad luck this year, you can NOT make a decision to fire a head coach. Next year is, however, a 'do or die' year. Theoretically if we get a red-shirt or 2 and field a semi-healthy team, we will have a potential BIG championship contender.

If that does happen (and stress IF) I would support a 4-5 year extension for Groce after 2017.
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Not all in that we will have a BIG championship team next year...but would sure like to see it.

Also not sure how many 17 recruits are going to jump on a "do or die" bus either. I'm committed to JG for the longer haul...and I hope the new AD is too for sake of recruiting. Patience, patience...
 
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