John Groce at Illinois

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 13, 2016

DudeAbides said:
Weber's last team was far better than their 17-15 record. At the same point during the season as this year we were 15-3 (4-1) and fresh off a big win against Ohio State. We lost 3 straight close games and then beat Michigan State to move to 16-6 (5-4). Around this time, Mike Thomas basically fired Weber without actually firing him. Weber lost control of the locker room and the season spiraled out of control.

I'm not defending Weber as I agreed he needed to go, but his final year was a really good team that should have made the tournament. If you were paying attention, you saw the talent, saw the minutes the juniors and freshmen were getting and knew that they would be far better next year with a fresh start.

To be fair, I think these are valid points, Weber's final team did greatly underachieve and that, along with recruiting going down hill, was why he was fired.

But certainly the perception was that Illinois was not in a good situation and coming a blown call away from a possible S16 berth was an over-acheivement, no doubt.

Serious Late · Jan 13, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
BTN predictions

Athlon

Hammerandrails

Again, definitely debatable whether we hit our mark or overachieved, but the general tone on Illinois Loyalty was right about where we ended up.

Official 2012-2013 Illinois Predictions Thread

This board also tends to lean optimistic every year before the season, but its pretty impressive the number of people who expected us to finish right about where we did. 8-10 in conference, a 7-seed and one win in the NCAA Tourney is pretty darn close to a "team that screams bubble".

illinitiger · Jan 13, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
BTN predictions

Athlon

Hammerandrails

Thanks WVC. I had to laugh that the BT prediction site polls are still functioning...I added a prediction vote for BP as scoring champ for kicks, even though its 3+ years late

Obviously our board was optimistic but most of the pundits had us bubble or below (NIT) that year.

Serious Late · Jan 13, 2016

illinitiger said:
Thanks WVC. I had to laugh that the BT prediction site polls are still functioning...I added a prediction vote for BP as scoring champ for kicks, even though its 3+ years late

Obviously our board was optimistic but most of the pundits had us bubble or below (NIT) that year.

Which is unfortunately where they have had us every year since.

IlliniJim20 · Jan 13, 2016

Hoppy2105 said:
I agree about Tracy. If one guy was going to hang around longer than expected yet have no negative impact from the previous culture, it would be him.

And yeah, I won't even say it's Bruce Weber himself or the players he left that are the excuse but literally the culture. I remember a time when it didn't matter how down we got we always thought there was a chance and any opponent was beatable on any day (especially at Assembly Hall). But let's be honest, how many people winced a little and thought "oh, no...it's happening" when Purdue went on their little 6-0 run to take the lead near the end of the first half.

We have been conditioned to fear/think the worst when a bad thing happens. Which is why this board seems to have crazy negative mood swings. But that is a product of our culture for the 6 years or so prior to Groce. John Groce is not a whiner or an excuses kind of guy so if we hold on to him, we will get our culture back...and if the guy can win some games/snag some recruits along with that culture? Well...look out because Illinois will be freakin unstoppable.

Wrt to the first part of the Bolded, it has been awhile since I have felt that way.

Wrt the second sentence of the Bolded, yes I feel that way about this team, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the previous head coach who has not been here for four years

IlliniJim20 · Jan 13, 2016

Serious Late said:
Again, definitely debatable whether we hit our mark or overachieved, but the general tone on Illinois Loyalty was right about where we ended up.

Official 2012-2013 Illinois Predictions Thread

This board also tends to lean optimistic every year before the season, but its pretty impressive the number of people who expected us to finish right about where we did. 8-10 in conference, a 7-seed and one win in the NCAA Tourney is pretty darn close to a "team that screams bubble".

I did not read through all the posts, but i surmise from your opinion, most people on this board had us making the tournament?

If this is true, then it supports the original thought of the poster, that "most expected us to make the tournament."

Again, now if I understand correctly, people are changing from "we" thought we'd make the tournament, to "they" ( so called experts) did not think we'd make the tourney?

dak117 · Jan 13, 2016

VAIllini35 said:
The PU game was, IMO, a good example of the Xs and Os working well - both O and D had a good scheme. Watch the O if you can see the game again and you'll see a pretty good pattern that worked well against PU. The swarming D against their bigs worked pretty well too.

We just don't have a PG that can penetrate and get us some easy dumps or layups so we're limited in that regard and have to play more of a perimeter game since we also don't have a C for inside/out - so our Xs are limited by our capability.

I completely agree, I thought the PU game showed that Groce can teach the players to execute a game plan just fine. I was more just saying that his X and O's are the complaint I have heard generally so I don't get John Pastner being brought up as a replacement. I am 100% a Groce supporter.

Jreed322 · Jan 13, 2016

Serious Late said:
Which is unfortunately where they have had us every year since.

We still overperformed in year two.

Serious Late · Jan 13, 2016

IlliniJim20 said:
I did not read through all the posts, but i surmise from your opinion, most people on this board had us making the tournament?

If this is true, then it supports the original thought of the poster, that "most expected us to make the tournament."

Again, now if I understand correctly, people are changing from "we" thought we'd make the tournament, to "they" ( so called experts) did not think we'd make the tourney?

Reading through that thread, I would say the average prediction was on the positive side of the bubble. Personally, we probably slightly over achieved even with 3 senior leaders in Paul, Richardson and Griffey, but not to the extent that it validates all that Groce is as a head coach. I also don't believe that this season condemns Groce as a head coach either, for the record. It is just a bit of revisionist history to point to one 7-seed, a win in the tourney and a close lose to a team that went on to lose by double digits in the sweet 16 as validation of his coaching chops. His end of season speech that year was amazing and I was fully on board with the idea that year was setting us up for a special run under Groce. Year 2 was completely understandable as a rebuild, but he absolutely had the pieces in year 3 to get more from that team than we got. So, in my opinion, year 1 was no more a pleasant surprise than year 3 was a complete disappointment. This uear is what it is, but there have been some disturbing games that make many wonder if he can right the ship. I am certainly hopeful he can, a few more wins like the one against Purdue and holding serve against all the teams we should hold serve against, and I believe we can still have positive momentum come out of this year. However, drop the game at home against Nebraska for example and fail to pick one back up against IU, OSU or Wisconsin, and the Purdue momentum will be lost.

It's all very much up in the air right now, which is why there is so much back and forth on this board. I think most probably feel about as I do, but the hyperbole such as is being discussed right now comes from the extremes and is counter productive to the discussion.

Jreed322 said:
We still overperformed in year two.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion.

themudflap · Jan 13, 2016

bleedsorangenblue said:
What mistakes are you talking about? JG has both a center and and experienced point guard. They just both happen to be injured right now. There have been some recruiting misses but I would not call them mistakes. It is much more a reflection of where the program is and lack of a winning history than it has been mistakes on Groce's part. Hate to tell you but it takes time to develop a program. JG's recruits have not completed their playing cycles and have not yet seen their full potential. There are some good pieces coming in, including that point guard that everyone has been clamoring about. I have confidence that Mav will continue to progress and either Thorne will play yet this year or be back next. If he is not back, I can't imagine that Groce will leave the program high and dry. You are seeing mistakes. I am seeing lack of patience on your part.

The pg is here only because he IS hurt. He should be gone. JG failed to recruit a competent one until TJL. Whether Thorne plays this year or next, we are left with none, very soon or at least a project. Agree or not, JG has made some mistakes in recruiting. That is all on him. People slammed Weber for it. You cannot ignore JG's. I explained how I would feel better about JG. Recruit Froling or someone similar to go with TJL and I feel better. That gives him a team that should make the tourney, next year. It is hard stomaching the team not making it this year. It is not about a lack of
patience either. How many years does he get? Next year is year FIVE!

So, how does he overachieve with Weber's players and underachieve with his? Here is the answer. Weber left him a very competent pg. An athletic center in Egu, a senior at SG, SF, and Pf. Weber left him players at every position. Geesh, Weber had Tisdale, Leonard, and Egu as his last three center recruits. Had JG come close to that, we are so much better. CF, DM, and TA are his pg's. You add Weber's worse center and pg recruits to this team and it is a tourney team. JG's recruiting holes are at center and pg. Big holes. If he fills them both, I think he is ok. But, it shouldn't be to this point in year four.

illinitiger · Jan 13, 2016

themudflap said:
The pg is here only because he IS hurt. He should be gone. JG failed to recruit a competent one until TJL. Whether Thorne plays this year or next, we are left with none, very soon or at least a project. Agree or not, JG has made some mistakes in recruiting. That is all on him. People slammed Weber for it. You cannot ignore JG's. I explained how I would feel better about JG. Recruit Froling or someone similar to go with TJL and I feel better. That gives him a team that should make the tourney, next year. It is hard stomaching the team not making it this year. It is not about a lack of
patience either. How many years does he get? Next year is year FIVE!

So, how does he overachieve with Weber's players and underachieve with his? Here is the answer. Weber left him a very competent pg. An athletic center in Egu, a senior at SG, SF, and Pf. Weber left him players at every position. Geesh, Weber had Tisdale, Leonard, and Egu as his last three center recruits. Had JG come close to that, we are so much better. CF, DM, and TA are his pg's. You add Weber's worse center and pg recruits to this team and it is a tourney team. JG's recruiting holes are at center and pg. Big holes. If he fills them both, I think he is ok. But, it shouldn't be to this point in year four.

I think JG has probably learned some lessons on swinging for fences on recruiting (JB, ED, etc)...as well as picking players that fit as Illini.

Like MH alluded at the Post PU press conference, the players and staff need to appreciate the fans who stick with them and believe in them and ignore the others. The team has to have confidence that despite our challenges, this team has strengths that enable them to compete with anyone, when they are focused. We have a very young and a beat up team in the near term....but we have the makings of very good team in the years to come.

Booting JG within the next 3 years would cause extreme chaos and put that future outlook in jeopardy, IMO.

DudeAbides · Jan 13, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
BTN predictions

Athlon

Hammerandrails

Did you even read those predictions? All 3 hinged on us flat-lining at the end of the prior season.

From the Purdue site "Illinois has a lot of talent, but I can't fogive them for flat out quitting after the upset of Ohio State. They literally went from beating a Final Four team to losing to Penn State in a span of nine days."

From the Big Ten site: "Brandon Paul headlines an under-performing team that is hard to figure."

Nobody is questioning the experience or talent on that team. They are cautious because we ran off the rails the prior season and have a new coach. Way too big of a question mark to put us in the top half of the Big Ten. Not only that, but I specifically said those that paid attention (Illini fans) knew that that team was an experienced and talented team more than capable of dancing.

DudeAbides · Jan 13, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
To be fair, I think these are valid points, Weber's final team did greatly underachieve and that, along with recruiting going down hill, was why he was fired.

But certainly the perception was that Illinois was not in a good situation and coming a blown call away from a possible S16 berth was an over-acheivement, no doubt.

Our 09 and 11 classes were actually very good classes. Those guys were 4th and 2nd year players in Groce's first year. Paul, DJ, Griffey, Bertrand, Tracy, Egwu and Henry form a great nucleus for a team. When we added McLaurin we felt comfortable in replacing Leonard's rebounding/defense while missing out on most of his offense. Add in some new vigor with a new coach and the improvement of the players and that team was going to be pretty good. If anyone thought they weren't good enough for the tournament, then they weren't really paying attention.

Jreed322 · Jan 13, 2016

DudeAbides said:
Our 09 and 11 classes were actually very good classes. Those guys were 4th and 2nd year players in Groce's first year. Paul, DJ, Griffey, Bertrand, Tracy, Egwu and Henry form a great nucleus for a team. When we added McLaurin we felt comfortable in replacing Leonard's rebounding/defense while missing out on most of his offense. Add in some new vigor with a new coach and the improvement of the players and that team was going to be pretty good. If anyone thought they weren't good enough for the tournament, then they weren't really paying attention.

There's so much hyperbole in here. First, the 11 class provided nothing. What in gods name makes you think Henry was part of a "great nucleus"?

Second, mclaurin was a solid add but no one felt comfortable about him providing much of anything in the way of what Meyers provided.

Finally, simply expecting us to improve from total and utter collapse to 2:00 from the sweet 16 because of "new coach vigor" and player improvement sounds like someone who wasn't paying attention.

Frank Dux · Jan 13, 2016

Jreed322 said:
There's so much hyperbole in here. First, the 11 class provided nothing. What in gods name makes you think Henry was part of a "great nucleus"?

Second, mclaurin was a solid add but no one felt comfortable about him providing much of anything in the way of what Meyers provided.

Finally, simply expecting us to improve from total and utter collapse to 2:00 from the sweet 16 because of "new coach vigor" and player improvement sounds like someone who wasn't paying attention.

Calvin · Jan 13, 2016

GeorgiaIllini said:
It surprises me that we are arguing the merits of a 9-8 team. I haven't looked, but when was the last time Illinois was 9-8? I don't remember any year where we were that bad - because normally we don't lose more than 2 or 3 in the noncon season.

We're in year 4 of the JG regime, we're 9-8 17 games into the season, and are likely headed for a "no tourney" year this year. After going to the NIT the last two years. I love his passion and energy, but this is just not where any of us expected to be this far down the JG road.

As for the Purdue game, which was fun and lifted our spirits, I think all it shows is what happens when a jump shooting team is hitting its jumpers. Maybe it was the influence of Lou Henson bobble head day?

So you're saying 1 win is not a trend?

Drink your kool-aid and sit down!

DudeAbides · Jan 13, 2016

Jreed322 said:
There's so much hyperbole in here. First, the 11 class provided nothing. What in gods name makes you think Henry was part of a "great nucleus"?

Second, mclaurin was a solid add but no one felt comfortable about him providing much of anything in the way of what Meyers provided.

Finally, simply expecting us to improve from total and utter collapse to 2:00 from the sweet 16 because of "new coach vigor" and player improvement sounds like someone who wasn't paying attention.

The 11 class provided nothing? Tracy averaged 28 mpg that year. Egwu averaged nearly 25 mpg. Henry averaged over 10 mpg. The three together averaged 21.6 ppg. This was as freshmen. They were clearly going to get better.

I don't understand this. I'm simply pointing out that we've had some really good teams in the past and you are cutting them down to save face for Groce. Look, you and I want the same thing. We want Illinois to be relevant at the national stage again. But ignoring the past and current results to favor the current coach will not magically make Illinois better. As fans, we need to demand more than just 8-10 finishes in the Big Ten.

I mean, I really like Groce as a person, but after 4 years, his best finish in league play will be 9-9. I mean, what? Why are we defending this?

Edit: To add, we all agreed Weber needed to go. After Dee and Augie left, the last 6 years of Weber's tenure resulted in 3 Big Ten finishes better than Groce will have in 4 years. His 4th best finish was Groce's best at 9-9. If Thomas didn't fire him mid-year, it's possible he salvages his last season and finishes above .500.

We were all sure that Weber drove us into the ground, which I agree with, but Groce has done nothing on the court to suggest he's bringing us back up. Just look at the records. I'm not making this up.

illinitiger · Jan 13, 2016

DudeAbides said:
The 11 class provided nothing? Tracy averaged 28 mpg that year. Egwu averaged nearly 25 mpg. Henry averaged over 10 mpg. The three together averaged 21.6 ppg. This was as freshmen. They were clearly going to get better.

I don't understand this. I'm simply pointing out that we've had some really good teams in the past and you are cutting them down to save face for Groce. Look, you and I want the same thing. We want Illinois to be relevant at the national stage again. But ignoring the past and current results to favor the current coach will not magically make Illinois better. As fans, we need to demand more than just 8-10 finishes in the Big Ten.

I mean, I really like Groce as a person, but after 4 years, his best finish in league play will be 9-9. I mean, what? Why are we defending this?

Edit: To add, we all agreed Weber needed to go. After Dee and Augie left, the last 6 years of Weber's tenure resulted in 3 Big Ten finishes better than Groce will have in 4 years. His 4th best finish was Groce's best at 9-9. If Thomas didn't fire him mid-year, it's possible he salvages his last season and finishes above .500.

We were all sure that Weber drove us into the ground, which I agree with, but Groce has done nothing on the court to suggest he's bringing us back up. Just look at the records. I'm not making this up.

I didn't realize Weber was fired mid-year...

Tevo · Jan 13, 2016

Foggy Notion said:
Just out of curiosity, did you expect that Groce was a finished product in the prime of his coaching career when we hired him at the ripe old age of 40?

No, but I was hoping he already knew how to instill a defensive scheme, or how to get a team to pass and move on offense. I was hoping he had a deep toolbox of motivational and schematic tactics to apply as appropriate in different situations and matchups and with different players. I was happy to see that he learned from the Butler and Iowa tape vs. Purdue and installed the same (or similar) double-teaming in the paint, to make the Purdue guards beat you.

I get that where Illinois is now, we're not going to bring in a finished, polished, top coach. And I'm not necessarily saying that Groce should go. I'm just not sure we should be expecting that he will get a lot better, or very quickly; I sincerely hope he does. He has plenty of room to grow.

Jreed322 · Jan 13, 2016

DudeAbides said:
The 11 class provided nothing? Tracy averaged 28 mpg that year. Egwu averaged nearly 25 mpg. Henry averaged over 10 mpg. The three together averaged 21.6 ppg. This was as freshmen. They were clearly going to get better.

I don't understand this. I'm simply pointing out that we've had some really good teams in the past and you are cutting them down to save face for Groce. Look, you and I want the same thing. We want Illinois to be relevant at the national stage again. But ignoring the past and current results to favor the current coach will not magically make Illinois better. As fans, we need to demand more than just 8-10 finishes in the Big Ten.

I mean, I really like Groce as a person, but after 4 years, his best finish in league play will be 9-9. I mean, what? Why are we defending this?

Edit: To add, we all agreed Weber needed to go. After Dee and Augie left, the last 6 years of Weber's tenure resulted in 3 Big Ten finishes better than Groce will have in 4 years. His 4th best finish was Groce's best at 9-9. If Thomas didn't fire him mid-year, it's possible he salvages his last season and finishes above .500.

We were all sure that Weber drove us into the ground, which I agree with, but Groce has done nothing on the court to suggest he's bringing us back up. Just look at the records. I'm not making this up.

You can't have a logical argument and try to argue anything for Henry by using "he played over 10mpg" as a point at the same time.

The rest of it is all the rhetoric we've already seen spewed here so I'm not rehashing that.

Serious Late · Jan 13, 2016

Jreed322 said:
You can't have a logical argument and try to argue anything for Henry by using "he played over 10mpg" as a point at the same time.

The rest of it is all the rhetoric we've already seen spewed here so I'm not rehashing that.

You just stated that the class of '11 provided "nothing" and then suggested that someone else was incapable of having a logical argument.

Tracy led our team in assists Groce's first year. Nnanna led the team in rebounds. It seriously bothers the H-E-Double Hockey Sticks out of me when a poster attempts to trash (mostly unfairly) current/former players while making arguments.

For the record, I also don't believe TJL is going to come in and play more minutes than a Senior Tate next season. But that is the consistent theme on here as well.

DudeAbides · Jan 13, 2016

Jreed322 said:
You can't have a logical argument and try to argue anything for Henry by using "he played over 10mpg" as a point at the same time.

The rest of it is all the rhetoric we've already seen spewed here so I'm not rehashing that.

What? Henry was the 8th man in an 8 man rotation. He was a freshman. I included him because he was literally the 8th person in minutes.

On what planet are we talking about bashing several former Illini players who gave everything to our university in favor of Groce who is being paid millions to give us so-so results?

We were a good team when Groce took over and we haven't really improved in 4 years. I don't care about anything Weber or Groce have done. I just want to win in a classy manner. Groce, so far, isn't doing that. It's as simple as that.

Serious Late · Jan 13, 2016

Abrams/Egwu/Henry were Sophomores in Groce's first year.

IlliiniLegacy · Jan 14, 2016

Calvin said:
So you're saying 1 win is not a trend?

Drink your kool-aid and sit down!

Loved this. POTD nominee

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 14, 2016

IlliniJim20 said:
I did not read through all the posts, but i surmise from your opinion, most people on this board had us making the tournament?

If this is true, then it supports the original thought of the poster, that "most expected us to make the tournament."

Again, now if I understand correctly, people are changing from "we" thought we'd make the tournament, to "they" ( so called experts) did not think we'd make the tourney?

DudeAbides said:
Not only that, but I specifically said those that paid attention (Illini fans) knew that that team was an experienced and talented team more than capable of dancing.

Well, no you didn't specify you meant Illini fans or this board. You said "everyone" so I assumed a larger audience. For sure, folks on this board and probably most Illini fans tend to be more optimistic than neutral observers.

DudeAbides said:
Our 09 and 11 classes were actually very good classes. Those guys were 4th and 2nd year players in Groce's first year. Paul, DJ, Griffey, Bertrand, Tracy, Egwu and Henry form a great nucleus for a team. When we added McLaurin we felt comfortable in replacing Leonard's rebounding/defense while missing out on most of his offense. Add in some new vigor with a new coach and the improvement of the players and that team was going to be pretty good. If anyone thought they weren't good enough for the tournament, then they weren't really paying attention.

Yes, those 2 classes were pretty solid, but they were surrounded by nothing. Nothing in 2008, 2010 or 2012. And a bunch of the better talent in those classes was concentrated in the wing positions. Funny how we keep repeating those same errors....

John Groce at Illinois

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