Well sure, but us being worse doesn't make lesser coaches better.
Let's say Georgetown or Memphis or Georgia Tech opens up this offseason. Are they hot after Bryce Drew? I don't see it, personally.
John Groce at Illinois
- Status
Well sure, but us being worse doesn't make lesser coaches better.
Let's say Georgetown or Memphis or Georgia Tech opens up this offseason. Are they hot after Bryce Drew? I don't see it, personally.
Not that I disagree with your overall point, but I wouldn't lump Griffey into the same group as Henry and Shaw.
Tyler had some big games his first three years. In fact, one of my biggest personal beefs against Weber was his unwillingness to utilize Tyler more in his Soph and Junior years. I mean the kid put up something like 12 and 7 at Mich St. as a Freshman (that Mich St. team went on to the Final Four).
But I digress.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
I've been very impressed when I've seen Valpo play. Passes the eye test for me.
And that's completely fair if they want to evaluate Groce based on what they've seen so far. But if it seems like the general consensus after last season is that Groce should be retained if he could get the team to the tourney this year. With the injuries, it makes it impossible to tell what the ceiling could have been, therefore it's an incomplete eval for this season. It's up to the AD to make the judgement call. If he agrees that Groce should have been given a chance after the 2014-15 season, then this season probably won't affect his judgement too much considering all of the injuries. If he was the AD at the time, and would have given Groce the boot after the 2014-15 season, then he's likely gone. This season doesn't give us much info really, despite how bad it's been at times.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
I'd give Groce a pass this year for missing the tournament but not for losing to North Florida, Tenn-Chattanooga and multiple Big Ten home games against average and below average teams. If we could have done something like Michigan last year, remain competitive in the Big Ten despite injuries I would be fine retaining him but we aren't close to that level.
I think his first season results were great, and I think his recruiting has been well above average. JCL, Black, Finke, Hill (although Hill was arguably locked in), Thorne and McLaurin as transfers, Nunn, are all guys that are BIG caliber IMO. No sure-fire NBA talent, but certainly talented guys that could be borderline pros. He's built decent rosters with the exception of PG. TJL is BIG caliber IMO, although I wouldn't oversell him either.
Having said all that, I don't find the product on the court acceptable. Year 2 I give him a pass. Year 3, not so much. And this year has been majorly disappointing because of how bad we've looked losing. I'm ok with missing the tourney this year based on injuries. What I'm not ok with is the defense being as crappy as I've seen. Even below BIG caliber players can be taught defense. Our 3 pt defense has been so obviously bad, it defies my bball sensibilities. The offense hasn't thrilled me either, but it's ok. If we hit shots, we can win some games because we have enough shooters.
Anyway, as others have said, it's moot. He'll almost certainly be our coach next season, and I support him (despite the open criticism I've leveled). I really hope that with a healthy roster, he has the depth he needs, and any weaknesses, he discovers solutions for. With Abrams and TJL learning the ropes, we might have enough there to hold serve at PG. And, he might land a program changing guard for '17. My concern obviously, is that some of Groce's weaknesses are not things that are going away soon. We'll see.
IrishTerryConklin
- Indianapolis
I'm a believer that under all but the worst circumstances (NCAA violations, scandals, etc) a coach should be given at least the opportunity to see his first class complete their 4 years.
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
There's a lot happening in this passage.
First, we apparently differ on whether you can evaluate Groce yet. I think you can, and the body of work is fireable. Even though I really like him and want him to succeed, this is the worst stretch of Illinois basketball in most of our lifetimes.
Second, as much as you'd like to secure interest and have a hot list of candidates from working back channels, the decision to fire a coach can't be predicated on who else you can get. As we learned the last time around, the risk is absurdly high. And further, our program is at the point where we're going to have to catch someone on the upswing or with a lot of unanswered questions. Using this logic, you'd have a tough time EVER firing Groce.
Third, the last time around we hired a guy with a record of being a plus recruiter and winning tournament games. He's failed on both counts here. While yes, it would be ideal for someone to check all those boxes, I don't think we'll be able to have that luxury this time (see above).
All that said, I don't think he will be fired due to the simple fact that there is no one to fire him. Even if we announce an AD today, barring an absolute cratering (still possible, I suppose), I just cannot imagine a scenario where a guy hired in February jettisons his bball coach in March. So I'm accepting that he's staying and hoping for the best, because as you said, it will be a long dark road we embark upon if we are doing a coach search at this time next year.
I actually agree with most, if not all of this. I wouldn't be surprised and hold it against a new AD if he's let go. I don't want to see it happen, but I'd completely understand. Again, I'm not saying that Bryce Drew wouldn't be a good coach, just that he wouldn't be the homerun hire that some are making him out to be. I don't think we need a hot list of candidates, but I just don't get the hype with him. There's a much greater chance that he'll be another Groce than another Shaka Smart. Our program is probably at the point where we would need to take a gamble on such a candidate. Personally, I would just rather give Groce another year before we make another gamble like that.
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
And I think I'm pretty close to with you on this, too.
It's hard to hold the simultaneous opinions that Groce's body of work so far warrants a change and that the candidates we'd see for the job could be really humbling. But that's where I find myself.
Fingers crossed for us somehow salvaging the AD mess and some improbable 2017 bball recruiting success!
Kevin Keatts at UNC Wilmington should be receiving more consideration. Anytime you combine an elite recruiting background with an immediate, dramatic turnaround of a mid-major program, you're dealing with a serious talent.
Check this out, UNCW's Kenpoms:
2012: 244
2013: 285
2014: 278
Keatts replaces Buzz Peterson
2015: 173
2016: 79
He built the program at the Hargrave Military Academy in Virginia, which is increasingly an Oak Hill-type talent factory. He brought elite players to Louisville and won a national title there. African-American guy, recent former high school coach, young, relates to the kids, great recruiter, an easy guy to stereotype as someone who wouldn't know a whiteboard from a hole in the ground as a coach, right? Well look at what he's doing, and with a substantial amount of leftover players.
Check this out, UNCW's Kenpoms:
2012: 244
2013: 285
2014: 278
Keatts replaces Buzz Peterson
2015: 173
2016: 79
He built the program at the Hargrave Military Academy in Virginia, which is increasingly an Oak Hill-type talent factory. He brought elite players to Louisville and won a national title there. African-American guy, recent former high school coach, young, relates to the kids, great recruiter, an easy guy to stereotype as someone who wouldn't know a whiteboard from a hole in the ground as a coach, right? Well look at what he's doing, and with a substantial amount of leftover players.
Beilein made went to the Elite Eight in year 2 at WV and the Sweet Sixteen in year 3.
At Michigan he finished 500% 2/4 yrs and made the NCAA twice. In year 4 he lost to Duke by 2 in the 2nd round.
I think there was objective evidence that he was good. Can Groce top that?
He also, BTW, inherited a train wreck and a depleted roster.
Thanks for making my point
Interesting choice of examples considering 2012 was how Groce got on the radar http://www.umhoops.com/2012/03/17/2012-ncaa-tournament-michigan-vs-ohio-recap/ with a win prior to running into UNC. His conference records at OHIO were a source of ire with the fanbase but they loved his NCAA wins...something not many MAC coaches in the last 2 decades could accomplish with their automatic berths.
Kevin Keatts is from the Pitino tree and was the lead recruiter for Jaquan Lyle while he was at Louisville. He was right in the midst of the recent pole dance scandal @ Louisville. No thanks.
+1. With "hype" being the notion that we're screwing ourselves by not firing Groce right away to make sure Drew doesn't get away from us. Baffling to me.
About this same point in the Weber era, I'm guessing.
That is why we fail.
jmwillini
- Tolono, IL
The life of an Illini fan...
No. Lousiville and Pitino can skate on stuff. We would get hammered.
Someday soon "Illinois fan conventional wisdom" is going to be classified as a verifiable psychological condition.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
:thumb: Paranoia and persecution complexes seem to originate somewhere around Wright St.
mattcoldagelli
- Script Illinois Enthusiast
Are you new to college sports?
- Status