He had it in his high school highlight reels. Maybe he doesn't have "it" for the athleticism and pace of the college game.
John Groce at Illinois
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Everyone looks like an all-star in their highlight reels. If someone was actually "ballsy" enough to put out a lowlight reel and looked good in that video, I would take them in a heartbeat!
*I* don't think he is getting up "thousands" of shots. in fact, I am pretty sure he is not...especially in season. Groce had quotas of 15k-25K shots over the summer at both Ohio and Illinois. You know how hard it is to get up 15K shots? Not necessary anyway. I'll take 200 good, quality shots with great mechanics a day over a thousand, inconsistent. poor shots anytime. Repping lousy form and inconsistencies leads to more lousy form and consistently inconsistent shooting. My guess is his shot has suffered some mechanical change making an inconsistent, poor shot release even worse. I say this as I watched his FT shooting release change from decent last year to poor presently
I agree. This year, since injuring his hand, he hasnt been the same player.
Free bird, you are exactly right about practicing when you are tired. Your mechanics are off and you reinforce bad habits. Tate was not much of a factor scoring wise on Simeon team. I am sure that he has worked at it but it takes a certain rhythm that some just cannot ever feel. We all recognized that it might be a low ceiling scoring wise when he committed. I think the problem was that we expected him to be the distributor that he was in HS. Problem with that is that we did not expect the college game to recognize his deficiencies and sag off him as much as they do. With defenses sagging off of him that basically gives the defense 4 and 1/2 men to cover 4 other players.
In most skills confidence has almost as much to do as the physical aspect of performance. The most talented athletes at times can't perform due to doubts and fears of failure. That is why the strongest mentally are usually the ones that perform and achieve under pressure. That's why at elite levels they spend time on mind/body aspects of performance. The more locked in mentally you are the greater the result. The highest level is an athlete that can regularly get in the "Zone". A place where you have very little awareness of anything beyond competing and having the sense of being invincible. The greatest, most consistent athletes have found the switch to get in that "Zone" and as they say "go to work".
The greatest, most consistent athletes have found the switch to get in that "Zone" and as they say "go to work".
.....And the rest practice IMHO, what I find to be the most detestable phenomenon... "Being on my grind"..... In my eyes that attitude is the difference between the best, and the rest
.....And the rest practice IMHO, what I find to be the most detestable phenomenon... "Being on my grind"..... In my eyes that attitude is the difference between the best, and the rest
Everyone looks like an all-star in their highlight reels. If someone was actually "ballsy" enough to put out a lowlight reel and looked good in that video, I would take them in a heartbeat!
I'll be submitting my lowlight reel to you shortly.
eMitch
- Quincy, IL
For old people (or maybe just me), what does the bolded mean?
I have been an Illinois fan since 1960, and have seen a lot of bad teams come and go, and also watched several really good ones. I have never seen any team with so many injuries to key personnel. I also do not think any other coach in the country could do any better with this many players hurt. When I look at the sanctions put on some other teams for cheating ( Syracuse and Louisville come to mind right away), then I realize how fortunate we have been to have A decent man for our coach. No one can fault who he has tried to recruit. Many teams we have played this year are led by recruits that Groce has tried to get, but he cant force them to come obviously. Without the unfortunate things with Darius Paul, Quentin Snider and the injuries we would be looking at Groce with a much different attitude today. I don't think he can be blamed for the poor seasons with everything that has happened. I also think that a lot of fans forget what happened with our last coaching search? The first several men we thought would jump at the opportunity at Illinois turned the offer down. Illinois has never paid a salary anywhere close to what a top coach would command, and many top coaches do not want to take a chance on trying to turnaround a program that has not been doing well. They do not need the losses on their resume. Short of someone like Harbaugh or Urban Meyer in football, just having a big name coach does not guarantee results. Being realistic I think you have to honestly ask, who can the University afford that will be willing to take the job, and that can actually get top recruits to consider Illinois over all the other top programs in the country. I think John Groce is gradually getting better players and he deserves the time to assemble an entire team at every position that will really have a chance to compete at the Big Ten Level. It is not going to be an easy hill to climb and a proven big time coach has no reason to take on the task.
No one on this board, to my knowledge, has accused Groce of not being a decent man. But the premise that you cannot be a decent man and a good coach is on its face clearly wrong. So then the question becomes has this decent man been given enough time to show his ability and does that ability justify his continued employment as the head coach of top level coaching position (or what used to be one). The turnaround time in basketball is short, JG has had 4 years to show his chops. Has he recruited at a top talent level? No - In that time, we have recruited and landed 4 top 100 players (in 4 years - giving him Nunn and Hill) - by the way, he says he wants a point guard, but the last 3 years he passed until it was too late on recruiting Ulis or Moore hard (um...point guards are not often very tall, coach) - there were 6 top 100 players on the first team he coached for Illinois (including Shaw and Henry) - thank you, Bruce! Have his teams performed at a high level...no - NCAA second weekend (just a reminder, we needed a last rush of games (including a last 2nd shot against Indiana) to make it in), NIT, NIT (blown out), likely nothing this year. Does his coaching pass the eye test? Not my eyes - he does not seem to understand offensive sets or flow, shot selection or even talent evaluation. Second year, Hill and Nunn clearly gave us a better shot at winning, took until 10 games left to figure that out, last year still trying to figure out in what alternate universe Cosby was a better player than Nunn (effective fg% of 38% to Nunn's 48%, 1/8 as many steals, 1/2 as many assists, same number of shots per game - seems like a rational decision), yet, Cosby allegedly beat out Nunn in practice..., this year, if Thorne doesn't go down do we see what Finke can do...not sure...we know our pgs stink but we keep trotting them out there...why not stay with a bigger lineup and let the 2 pgs play very limited pressure the ball full court minutes? I have never seen a coach blame poor shooting more than him...in the Iowa game Uthoff, Gesell and Jok were all off the floor and the second team from Iowa was getting better shots against our first team than we were getting against their second team...there is no weirder offense that I have seen, the picking is generally non-existent...they run from one wing to the other to get the offense started from 25 feet....and then take a quick shot almost every time...or force a bad shot late...he has not figured out what my daughter's 6th grade team is being taught, willingness to shoot does not mean ability to shoot....I would not waste one more year on this decent man...we can hire a winner who can be a decent man (look at Lou).
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This is all fair. He's made a lot of recruiting mistakes and I'm willing to look past those. I too think he can figure out the recruiting piece of this job.
What I'm more concerned about is his coaching. He wants to play an offense that requires great one-on-one players that can beat people off the dribble even though he doesn't have any of those players. His defense consistently gives up open shots because the players are always scrambling around to catch up with the constant switching. I wish somebody could just tell me why his actual coaching is so good.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
I spoke with my Iowa-Fan colleague today after he watched the game over the weekend. He's a knowledgeable sports guy with usually good analysis. I asked him, as an outsider, what he thought of the Illini. He said, "I've never seen a team take so many hard shots. It's no wonder they don't make a lot of them, because they always have a hand in their face or are off balance or spinning or twisting." Some of that is not having a consistent, reliable post scoring presence. Some of it is also not having players able to feed the post when we have clear advantages. But a LOT of it is a set of players who are unwilling or unable to run an offensive scheme, or an offensive scheme poorly matched to our players.
For most teams, when a player comes around off a baseline screen, he is running full speed, and the ball arrives just as he comes open so he has maximum time to stop, set his feet and shoot, and so he has maximum separation from the trailing defender. Our guys come off screens jogging, and then are almost at a stand-still before the pass arrives. The result is that we ran a guy all the way across the court, while everyone else stood still, in order to move the ball 10 feet, and at that point, the guy with the ball is still closely defended and has no clear shot. I have no idea what that is supposed to accomplish. What is appears to accomplish, so far over the last 3+ seasons, is some of the worst shooting percentages in the conference.
Agree although I'm not even sure what offensive scheme we're running this year. The only consistent play I see is a Finke ball screen and him fanning out to the 3 point line. It's probably their most effective play. Defensively he wants to play a pack line defense but you need long rangy guys to interrupt passing lanes and get their hands in the face of defenders on perimeter shots. Either he's not recruiting the type of players that fit into this system OR he's not adjusting his system to the guys on his roster.
Tevo, this is one of my concerns....the guys don't use speed and quickness to create open shots. Often the half court offense seems so slow. Granted, I probably am too idealistic... and watch the Warriors too much.
I agree with many of the concerns shared within this thread. I would be curious to see if all these concerns were still present with a competent healthy team. I am clearly in favor of giving the man one more year for the following reasons: 1) next year he should have a better cast of players (if healthy) than he does this year (I know we are grading him on 4 years work but hear me out)
2) give him a chance to earn his stripes as an excellent recruiter with the 2017 class. If he fails the question will be answered beyond a doubt.
3) I believe if we move on from Groce it is imperative that we get as close to a home run hire as possible. At this point, I find it highly unlikely that we can attract such a coach. Our athletic department is in such disarray that many coaches would pass. Give the new AD time to prove that he/she is cleaning it up and we can once again say "we're Illinois of course you want to come here." I also feel that some coaches would think we gave Groce an unfair dismissal based on the injuries of the 2015-2016 season. The last thing we need is a 4th or 5th choice.
2) give him a chance to earn his stripes as an excellent recruiter with the 2017 class. If he fails the question will be answered beyond a doubt.
3) I believe if we move on from Groce it is imperative that we get as close to a home run hire as possible. At this point, I find it highly unlikely that we can attract such a coach. Our athletic department is in such disarray that many coaches would pass. Give the new AD time to prove that he/she is cleaning it up and we can once again say "we're Illinois of course you want to come here." I also feel that some coaches would think we gave Groce an unfair dismissal based on the injuries of the 2015-2016 season. The last thing we need is a 4th or 5th choice.
In the PGs defense, it takes two to complete a pass. Lack of movement by the other four players makes them easy to guard (deny the pass) and the PGs job as a distributor very difficult. If I was a point guard, no way I'd want to be in this offense.
Agreed on the communication as we have always taught the last 3 feet of the pass is on the receiver.
As for your assertion of not wanting to be a PG, in this offense, DJ Cooper was top 5 in assists on Ken Pom 2 of his 4 years and consistently near the top all 4 starting as a frosh. Analytically, the offense as it is conceived uses a PG pretty well. Problem is, the personnel has been the problem for the entirety of the regime.
I agree. I take it we aren't seeing the offense as conceived. Dribble drive is a motion offense. I like motion offenses provided there is motion.
Sleepy Floyd
Kicking it with Fat Lever
- Champaign
It's not dribble drive, though.
Originally Posted by freebird6 View Post
No time to get into a heavy discussion of offensive theory but the offense ran at OHIO always started with the pass to the wing or a high ball screen. It , in no way, resembled Vince Walberg's dribble drive any more than it resembled a Flex or any other offense. It is based mostly on a pro style screen and roll with ball movement east to west and reversal. Google it and get familiar with the actual dribble drive, principles and variations with penetration and throwing back out with .
Groce's offense does rely on the primary guard as the engine but it runs through the wings and uses screens and passing (with very little dribbling) with ball reversal and reads off the defender to run through the progressions. Continuity, once the options are exhausted relies on a seamless transition once the PG gets the ball back into the next screen/wing/sets. A scoring PG threat is when this offense works best otherwise the wings get overplayed and locked down.
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All I know is what I see:
Some teams take difficult shots, but have players with enough talent to make them.
Some teams create a lot of movement to get open shots.
Some teams play HARD on defense, and get angry when they miss an assignment or don't defend in a disruptive way.
Some teams really know how to rebound, and expect every 50-50 ball to be theirs.
I don't see any of those when I watch us play. In fact, when I switch to another marquee game, all I see is how much better legit teams are. The thing that bothers me most about this season is how our mix of first and second stringers simply can't run the offense or the defense for 40 minutes. It would be one thing if I could recognize the system even though it wasn't being run as well. Instead, I see a system that just doesn't work with the guys we have. No question we're playing with smoke and mirrors at times due to weakness/experience, but I thought we'd see more of a coaching difference, and more improvement over the season.
With our personnel, it's impossible for someone to judge Groce's system based on this season (well probably every season actually). You can judge how well he adapts to change, but that's tough to do considering most of our first and second stringers should be second and third stringers.
The problem might not be just the coach but the entire DIA. There are certain things that must be done collectively to sway the target. Groce has gone after some phenomenal players and its not just the burger boys. His eye for talent is tremendous.
Think about the near misses- XRM (FSU), Blueitt (XU), Demetrius Jackson (ND), Ben Moore (SMU), Nic Moore (SMU), Quentin Snider (UL), and . Then there are other guys he got in early on but they just blew up too much to be in reach i.e. Swanigan (PU), Thomas Bryant (IU), Jamal Murray (UK), Keita Bates-Diop (OSU), London Perrantes (UVA), and Tyler Ennis. Even the little BU pg Watson that transferred to Creighton went off for 32 pts last night.
Any two of those guys would have changed the trajectory of our program. We don't need to get only our first choice but changes need to be had to get at least option A or option B at two positions each recruiting class.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
We probably could have got Watson, seemed like we backed off.
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