These have been my concerns all along. Not just this year.
John Groce at Illinois
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These have been my concerns all along. Not just this year.
This will not happen for a while, no matter who the AD will be. So irrelevant IMO in the Groce decision. The lack of AD is relevant, but it will take some time to transform and elevate the athletic department, especially considering the football situation. The decision on Groce will be more imminent, most likely within the next year (either way).
Just a couple of things. Nunn was injured at the beginning of last year. That is the reason Cosby got the early starts. He was a shell of himself early in the season while his shoulder finished healing.
Finke would have gotten time this year as the third big after Thorne and Black. We needed all of them. Losing three starters meant that Finke, JCL, and Tate had to start. Not only were they not as good as the guys ahead of them, we lost those three as rotation bench players. Instead, deep reserves moved into the rotation. Guys like Austin would never have sniffed playing time without injuries. We could have redshirted Jordan or Williams, too. It not only hurts badly to lose three starters but also then losing three top reserves who have to move into the lineup weakening the bench. Thorne, Black, Hill, Nunn, Abrams with Finke, JCL, Tate, Jordan, etc. off the bench is an entirely different look.
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"very little dribbling"
Thought it was more the John Calipari version, though. I could be wrong, but I think Groce said he likes to push the pace, I think "transition offense" was the phrase he used, then runs a dribble drive/ball screen offense in the half court, John Calipari's version of the dribble drive.
Pushing the pace and looking at tempo numbers has always been part of his mantra. He likes lots of possessions and high adjusted tempo numbers. That's the rationale behind the desk training and Mile runs for time every Monday am in the summer. Physical conditioning and mental toughness to produce advanced adj tempo nos.
If someone could post a possession or two that accurately shows what we are tying to do on offense, that would be great. I really don't care if the end result of the possession was good or bad, but just something where we ran our offense and got the look we wanted.
I have honestly yet to figure out what we are trying to do on that half of the court.
I have honestly yet to figure out what we are trying to do on that half of the court.
Haven't seen the pushing of the pace in any of the 4 years on the job.
What I have seen is the offense going into long gaps where it can't score in each of his 4 years.
The long gaps were due to a lack of personal for his Type of team. Had he been able to recruit even a decent PG and a center, his team's should have been more respectful. Recruiting has been his problem
I have no idea why people players wouldn't want to come here. You'd think any guard would be cool with coming down and jacking up 25 footers in the first 10 seconds of the possession.
This Dribble drive offense may be a motion offense from the standpoint player movement being based more on reaction of what the defense provides than going to a fixed place no matter what the defense does, but I'd guess that most of the people who are on this board who played high school or even junior high basketball and their team ran "motion", see no similarity with what Groce's team runs.
The basic tenant of the dribble drive is drive to the basket, if no one stops you, you have a layup or a dunk. If someone stops you, that help is likely coming from the weak side post, so drop it off to that person, or from a perimeter defender, in which case you should have an open jumper. If that person drives, the defense is already in scramble mode, so they should have an easier path, or an easier kick. There is very little, if any screening, and very little movement without the ball. I'd say for most people who "ran motion"....the dribble drive is the equivalent to rolling the balls out there and letting them play. I guarantee the pick up games at my health club between 30 and 40 year olds have more principles of "motion" than this offense.
I don't even know what the defensive principles are that we are trying to execute.
That said, I think Groce deserves another year. I love all guys that wear the O & B, but we are just outclassed talent wise.
This Dribble drive offense may be a motion offense from the standpoint player movement being based more on reaction of what the defense provides than going to a fixed place no matter what the defense does, but I'd guess that most of the people who are on this board who played high school or even junior high basketball and their team ran "motion", see no similarity with what Groce's team runs.
The basic tenant of the dribble drive is drive to the basket, if no one stops you, you have a layup or a dunk. If someone stops you, that help is likely coming from the weak side post, so drop it off to that person, or from a perimeter defender, in which case you should have an open jumper. If that person drives, the defense is already in scramble mode, so they should have an easier path, or an easier kick. There is very little, if any screening, and very little movement without the ball. I'd say for most people who "ran motion"....the dribble drive is the equivalent to rolling the balls out there and letting them play. I guarantee the pick up games at my health club between 30 and 40 year olds have more principles of "motion" than this offense.
I don't even know what the defensive principles are that we are trying to execute.
That said, I think Groce deserves another year. I love all guys that wear the O & B, but we are just outclassed talent wise.
Groce deserves another year for sure. With a monster recruiting class in-state for 2017, we really can't let it pass us by with nothing while we try to hire a new coach and deal with the fallout from this roster. I know people are calling for his job, but we could REALLY use some program stability at this point and I still think he can do it.
cmrfrd7
- Olympia, WA
Problem being that it's going to be tough sledding for Groce on the recruiting trail for the 2017 class with his perceived lack of job stability. It's a bit of a catch 22.
We need someone who can coach and recruit, whether that is Groce or not remains to be seen. The first part is an obvious statement. But four years of evidence is becoming tough to ignore.
While the 2017 class appears to have a number of good in-state prospects, I think it is being overtouted and definitely as it relates to the players that we have a chance of landing. The hot girls seem to have better suitors calling. I hope they decide to be different, stay home, and make a statement. But how can you blame them for going elsewhere when we have all watched the on-court performance the last four years? A few moments of glory, but for the most part irrelevance.
I'm just afraid we are never going to land the level of talent that can overcome (IMO) below average coaching. Groce is young and still learning, but maybe not fast enough....
No More Excuses
I was looking at bracketology and Wisconsin is on the bubble. Wisconsin lost 2 first round picks, their starting pg, another starter and a sixth man (dukan) who got big minutes, oh, yeah, a hall of fame coach. I am tired of the excuses, no more excuses after 4 years. Recruiting is down, talent evaluation is down, execution is down, if you take into account the Darius Paul situation and the Cosby and Rice suspensions of last year, character is arguably down [no one ever talks about the amount of players Groce has run off in 4 years - it is a lot - including Austin Colbert, who, my prediction, will end up being as productive or more productive than Mike Thorne or Darius Paul], the only arrow pointing up is apathy. How did they do it again at Wisconsin...it is called coaching. With this nice 2017 class coming up, it is perfect timing for the U of I to use some of its endowment (or big $ alums) and pony up a top tier level compensation package and go after a top talent coach, maybe Gregg Marshall is interested in seeing what he can do in the BCS....it is time for the U of I to act like a top tier athletic program - pay for a top level AD, pay for a top level coach and let's see how great we can be.
I was looking at bracketology and Wisconsin is on the bubble. Wisconsin lost 2 first round picks, their starting pg, another starter and a sixth man (dukan) who got big minutes, oh, yeah, a hall of fame coach. I am tired of the excuses, no more excuses after 4 years. Recruiting is down, talent evaluation is down, execution is down, if you take into account the Darius Paul situation and the Cosby and Rice suspensions of last year, character is arguably down [no one ever talks about the amount of players Groce has run off in 4 years - it is a lot - including Austin Colbert, who, my prediction, will end up being as productive or more productive than Mike Thorne or Darius Paul], the only arrow pointing up is apathy. How did they do it again at Wisconsin...it is called coaching. With this nice 2017 class coming up, it is perfect timing for the U of I to use some of its endowment (or big $ alums) and pony up a top tier level compensation package and go after a top talent coach, maybe Gregg Marshall is interested in seeing what he can do in the BCS....it is time for the U of I to act like a top tier athletic program - pay for a top level AD, pay for a top level coach and let's see how great we can be.
Plenty of rhetoric here but you have to be realistic. Wisconsin lost their coach but has a guy that had plenty of experience for there to be continuation without much of an impact. They lost a ton of talent but they still have nba talent on the team. Wasn't Bronson their starter at PG last year near the end? Well he's still there, along with Nigel Hayes, and a new talent in Happ. They have more talent than us at crucial positions. He may be a better coach than Groce, but right now it's the lack of talent that is killing us, and big part of that is due to injuries. We can offer guys the big bucks, but it doesn't mean they'll come. We're not even close to being a top tier program and money won't change that in the near future.
Agree. Watched a few videos of the team his first year... Abrams, Paul, Richardson, Griffey and Egwu. Kind of doubt anyone on the roster today could break into that lineup.
From Taylor Ridge, IL pop. 2300. Rockridge H.S. Did Groce even look at him?
To add to this, Wisconsin has been a far better program for the past decade or so than us. They have a culture of winning that all their guys are used to.
We had Finke in that same class and Happ committed pretty early on.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
Same class as Finke and Black, don't think it's fair to blame Groce for that one and I'm a critic. Can't take everyone.
I'm not sure I agree with this at all. We had those two but we still went after big Cliff so I think even Groce recognized the need to build depth in the front court. Happ is a completely different player than Finke and Black and is more of a true back to the basket type player. More importantly though I don't think the staff even recruited Happ very seriously. Happ isn't the only case of lower ranked recruits within the state that Groce and staff didn't recruit. Guys like Jevon Carter, Sean O'Mara, Glynn Watson and Kendall Pollard are all guys that left the state without getting much attention from JG and staff while they spent all their time chasing guys like CA, Elijah Thomas, Juwan Evans and Brunson.
I think a consistent problem that Groce needs to learn how to fix is the low FG% his teams traditionally have. People have posted here in the past explaining that his teams take too many low % mid-range jumpers (I think you can see this by just casually watching games) and I believe someone even linked to some Illinois shot charts compared to other BIG teams.
I think this is further supported by year-by-year statistics that show Groce’s teams have a worse FG% during his tenure compared to similar personnel prior to and after him being the coach (see attached table).
It is encouraging that his offense seems to generate a decent 3pt %, but that further shows that we are probably taking the wrong 2pt shots given the low 2pt %.
I think this is further supported by year-by-year statistics that show Groce’s teams have a worse FG% during his tenure compared to similar personnel prior to and after him being the coach (see attached table).
It is encouraging that his offense seems to generate a decent 3pt %, but that further shows that we are probably taking the wrong 2pt shots given the low 2pt %.
Attachments
Hmmm.. I have a hard time keeping DJ Richardson over Malcolm and Nunn right now. DJR was awesome to have as an Illini, and I would take him back in a heartbeat on our team, but I would say that Malcolm and Nunn are more productive right now.
Didn't we have a scholarship open and gave it to MLT? Also, I think we had three transfers on the roster which I assume Groce liked better. And Groce has demonstrated time and again he'll part ways with a player to add a player he wants... of course they're usually transfers.
Happ was undersized at the time of his commitment. I know it's falsely spread that Finke was 6'7 when he committed but Happ has definitely grown since he did.
True but I still think its concerning the lack of attention this staff gave to a D1 talent within the state. We'll have to see how this plays out in the next couple of years but schools like Nebraska, Iowa and even Northwestern have swept into the state and taken on kids that we never took a look at.
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