Foggy Notion
- San Francisco
Snider was supposed to be a part of the team until the last minute.
John Groce at Illinois
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Snider was supposed to be a part of the team until the last minute.
That arguably was the worst recruiting turn/miss of the Groce era. Literally set the program back 2-3 years. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Groce will ever be able to recover from that blow. TJL may be too late, even if he is better than his rating.
More and more teams are taking advantage of the fifth year transfer, which allows a player to be able to play without sitting out a year. I also understand the concerns expressed by some when it specifically applies to Illinois.
I agree with your comment concerning the freedom to shoot shots. In my opinion, shot selection has been very questionable at times. It seems there is a fire at will approach.
Newman makes a good point. And only this forum could turning a recruiting win over Kentucky into a negative. I swear, it's amazing how many times I've heard that landing Thorne was a sin in some form.
Snider, lost to the lap dance.....
hooraybeer
- Pittsburgh, PA
ah yes... that fateful day...
The biggest reason why John Groce should be fired is also the #1 reason why he will stay. As I've commented before, apathy is unfortunately beginning to set in. For the first time since since 1983 attendance is below 13000. This is despite what historically are the least attended games not even counting towards that (November games vs awful teams). This is despite 160 million dollars spent to built what essentially is a brand new stadium. They haven't sold out one game. They are having major major trouble with the unsold suite boxes, one of the major reasons for the overhaul. Donors can't be bothered with the tickets. Attendance in the John Groce era had already fallen to alarmingly low numbers from even the late Weber years, but now it's full on panic mode.
Of course terrible attendance means two things. Money isn't flowing into the program and it'd be hard to afford any buyout. Also means simply people just don't care much about the program anymore, and it would be tough to create enough pressure to make a change or get enough cash for the buyout to make it happen.
Of course terrible attendance means two things. Money isn't flowing into the program and it'd be hard to afford any buyout. Also means simply people just don't care much about the program anymore, and it would be tough to create enough pressure to make a change or get enough cash for the buyout to make it happen.
Terrible attendance also means it is time for a change. Mens basketball and football need to generate enough revenue for all sports. Attendance may make it an easy decision to replace Groce for the new AD.
What season was worse this one or the 2008/09 season under BW? Hopefully the team can make a run in the BIG tourney like that team did.
One question I have for others is does Ford make all the in game subs? I really don't pay attention to other coaches and the way they make their changes during the game but I have watched Groce and Ford and it seems Ford decides who to put in and when. To me that is the head coaches job but maybe that's not the way programs do it anymore.
One question I have for others is does Ford make all the in game subs? I really don't pay attention to other coaches and the way they make their changes during the game but I have watched Groce and Ford and it seems Ford decides who to put in and when. To me that is the head coaches job but maybe that's not the way programs do it anymore.
Highly highly doubt it. I've been around coaches who don't even run practices (Bruce Weber sort of an example) but the head coach always always says who plays.
While I hear what you are saying and attendance is important, Groce should simply be fired if he is not a good coach. Every game becomes that much more evidence that is the case.
We took a flyer on a young, charismatic, former B1G assistant that put together a couple runs in the MAC Tournament and NCAA Tournament, while hoping he could figure out how to become a consistent winner and recruiter as a head coach at Illinois. The sample size keeps growing that we may have been wrong.
I still care about Illinois basketball A LOT, but I have seen enough the last few years to know better than to invest too much faith in this regime.
My son has a brother-in-law that is the varsity coach of a large suburban high school in the Chicago area. I saw him recently and asked him ‘Can a good coach make a bad team average, make an average team great?’ His answer was a question: Who is going to score the points? He told me his current team plays good defense and rebounds well but has no one on the team that can easily score points.
I attended the Northwestern vs. Illinois game and we missed many easy baskets. So Illinois’ question is: Who is going to score the points?
I attended the Northwestern vs. Illinois game and we missed many easy baskets. So Illinois’ question is: Who is going to score the points?
They might be scripted substitutions if thats the case. He tells them before the game the sub patterns he wants (ie- I want Finke subbed out at the 13 minute mark). I doubt he's not in control.
We shot 11-32 from 2 pt. area, one of the worst of the year. Throw in in the last 3:40, 2 Hill TO's, a DJW TO, & 2 DJW FT bricks and you get a big "L". This team is merely not good enough to make mistakes and overcome them.
I think the better question is, "Can a good coach make a bad/average group of players average/great?" The result of that is the team. If you look at our player rankings relative to our results, we are getting outplayed/beat by teams with lower rated talent than us. That means those players are getting developed better and/or have a better offensive/defensive system than us. Those are the coaching staff's responsilities.
Some will argue that our shortcomings are primarily related to lack of talent at one or two positions, say PG or C. While that is a factor, I am not sure how long we can use that as an excuse. Regardless, that would point to other deficiencies (recruiting) that are once again the staff's responsibility.
We generally have not played good defense and are one of the worst rebounding teams in the country this season, so I do not see a lot of comparisons between your son's brother-in-law's team and the Illini. We have plenty of scorers on our team.
I hope that our team is entirely healthy next year so we can lay the excuses to rest. I think we will have our answer one way or another.
Illinithad
- Northeast Missouri
I'm not trying to argue, don't want to come off as hostile because I'm not. But I honestly feel that it's not an excuse...it's a fact. We get outrebounded because we are missing Thorne and Black. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I honestly feel. Add them in a rotation with Mav and Finke...mix and match and our rebounding is much better. Missing Tracy is huge at point guard. As the season goes on, even if you play 100 games without these guys, you still have a major disadvantage. Missing those three also kills us with depth issues. Nunn and Hill were averaging over 40 minutes a game a couple of weeks ago when we had all the overtime games. I understand the complaints on the recruiting misses, but this roster, if healthy, and all playing, I truly feel would have won a lot more games this year...maybe I'm wrong. According to my wife I usually am.
PaytonHighstep
- Downers Grove, IL
Being out of position or late on a rotation defensively is just as critical to defensive rebounding as the rebounding ability of the player. It has been on ongoing concern throughout the season with/without these injuries. Defensive positioning is still a concern, which hasn't been cleaned up. Guess what? We are still getting beat up by teams' offensive rebounding ability against us.
Agree on the impact this year in regards to rebounding with Thorne and Black out.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that each successive excuse/factor/fact holds less collective credibility as the body of evidence (seasons of W/L trends) grows. But Groce has had a seemingly bad string of luck.
I hope we climb out of the cellar next year, finish in the top half of the conference, make the tournament easily, land a rock star 2017 recruiting class and Groce goes on to be our head coach for a long time while finishing in the top third of the conference year in and year out. I'm just not sure that is what the future holds.
Tevo
- Wilmette, IL
But "scoring the points" becomes a lot easier when an excellent coach has installed an effective offensive scheme. You don't need guys who can "make their own shot" or who are excellent athletes or unconscious shooters to score points. All of those things help, obviously, and all things being equal, the team that has those guys will win, but all things AREN'T equal. A good coach can get a team working well together -- setting good screens, moving without the ball, knowing where each other will be, etc. Absolutely a good coach can make a group of average players into a good team.
This also applies to individual players: a good coach can turn an average athlete into a good player, and a good athlete into an excellent player. Anyone who has played pick-up basketball can identify guys who have been "coached" vs guys who just watch basketball on TV and then come out to play. Positioning, anticipation, how to execute a ball fake, footwork, box-out position, etc. are all fundamental techniques and skills that are learned. By teaching those skills, and motivating guys to practice them and USE them, a good coach helps players perform beyond what their "talent" level might normally indicate.
Illinithad
- Northeast Missouri
This sounds great and all but there isn't just one way of becoming a "good" coach. There are many ways that can make a coach good at his job. Some coaches are defensive minded, some focus mostly on offense, some adapt to the players that they have, and some recruit players that fit their system regardless of player ranking. Those skills that you mentioned are taught by damn near every coach in the country. Some of course, are better than others, but in the end it comes down to recruiting guys that are athletic, skilled, or players that have the drive to become one of the former. There aren't many coaches that can just take an average group of players and make them great. Usually when there is a huge jump in performance, it's due to a mental shift and buy-in but the players weren't average to begin with, they were probably just underperforming.
I look at a team like Alabama with Avery Johnson as their newly installed coach.....few would say "homerun hire". He doesn't have alot of coaching experience, but you can tell the players are having fun and are very confident...focused on creating extreme discomfort on D and have an extraordinary level of confidence on offense. They are on the rise, not because they got a homerun coach hire, but because players have renewed confidence.
Sleepy Floyd
Kicking it with Fat Lever
- Champaign
He won an NBA coach of the year.
Right...should have said little college coaching experience. Despite lack of ncaa coaching he has the team playing with confidence.
Sometimes I think our guys play down to the expectations rather than have belief that they can compete.
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