Kentucky 84, Illinois 75 Postgame

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#601      
AirNeazy
Battle89 said:
I mean we can all discount Barkley ragging on it (not that he was wrong) because we know he had some control-room analyst talking into his earpiece with what to say. But when John Beilein calls it "the worst Brad Underwood defense I've ever seen" that carries some weight with me.
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Yup. Kenpom Defensive Ranks for the last 6 seasons:

'20 (7 seed, tourney cancelled): #35 **Switched from extreme pressure defense this season
'21: (1 seed): #7
'22: (4 seed) #29
'23: (9 seed): #26
'24: (3 seed): #80 **Hamer put in charge of defensive schemes
'25: (6 seed): #41 **Hamer still in charge of defense
🤷‍♂️

I said this on the other thread, but if we just have a top 30 defense last year and this year, we're running away with the B1G title and almost locks for the Final Four....DEFENSE WINS TITLES!
 
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#602      
BoiseBaller
FleetFeetIllini said:
Watching other teams blow up our pick and roll with hard hedging while our drop coverage continued to get torched was so frustrating. The answer was right in front of us. The whole point of drop coverage is to avoid mismatches that switching creates and avoid rotations that leave 3 point shooters open, but our 3 point defense was terrible anyway. So what the hell good was it? With our !!!!!! drop teams got into the paint any time they want and get open looks from 3 anyway.

We did it against Iowa for a game and then did it here and there but never really committed to it. Brad has show over multiple seasons and assistants that he prefers this scheme and I don't think getting rid of Hamer will change that. I wish we had more flexibility at defense so we could change things up a bit depending on the opponent, but that's just not how he runs things.
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I have thought about this sooooo many times.

The only thing I can come up with is that the game plans called for our guys to fight over every screen and stay with their guy. Boswell was the only one who was even remotely reliable at that. KJ especially, White, Will those guys struggled if it was even a remotely decent screen.

Instead of watching them fail over and over, you'd think they would adjust. But it just didn't happen.
 
#604      
altgeld88
BoiseBaller said:
That is an interesting take, given you witnessed the worst loss in program history live and in person.

I came back for the USC game and was able to attend the game at Nebraska. Both disappointing losses.

I was actually pondering last night what "grade" I'd give this season. I saw someone else mention C+. That would also be what I'd give it. If we had won yesterday and made the S16 that jumps up in the B range but for me, the blowout losses, finishing mid-pack in conference, first weekend exit is pretty darn meh. I bumped it to C+ from C for beating Miznoz and IU. Just my .02.
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SescIllini said:
We are fans, and I don't grade my experience on the scores. Yes they got blown out at MSG, but Illinois had more fans there than Duke. Let that sink in...Illinois flexing muscle in other ways that I see greater success. Also had a great time in NYC.
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Endorsed. I was there, too, and my heart swelled to see MSG painted in orange, despite the mismatch. In addition, the Michigan and Purdue games were absolutely splendid. I traveled to AA to see the Michigan game and the boys administered such a thorough beating int he 2H that the home fans began to file out with 10 mins remaining.

We had too many young, inexperienced guys, which creates inconsistency. And one returner from the preceding season. C'est la vie. It's done. Solve the administrative problems, use the portal to augment four or five solid returning players, and let's look forward to November. I'm finished complaining about what concluded last evening.
 
#605      
jjv0004
You can't have your 2 1st round NBA guys combine for 6-20 with 9 turnovers between them. That's not on the coach.
 
#606      
OrangeBlue98
AirNeazy said:
Lmao, I'm old enough to remember when everyone and their grandmother was claiming that motion offense was dead and we needed to move onto the bright and shiny PnR only offense of Groce. Glad to see things come full circle!
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There's a healthy balance in there somewhere. The metrics show that Illinois has been very good to great the last two seasons offensively. I do not think that's the issue by a pretty healthy margin. But there is always room for improvement.

You won't find a bigger proponent of spacing the floor than me. I'm a soccer fan, and the idea of clustering the entire attack in a limited area of the field is not a good idea. I've seen too many instances across all levels of basketball where lack of floor spacing bogs offenses down. Obviously, when you have a player like Ivisic pick and roll and pick and pop better be in your offensive arsenal.

But you can go too far the other way. Placing a guy in the corner and telling him, "Hey, just stand there" makes it seem like we're playing 4 vs 4.5 or so while on offense. It would be like Pep Guardiola telling his winger "Just stand there so the defense has to put someone near you." There has to be a way to get that corner guy more involved in the offense. Other teams seem to do it.

I have some time this week, and I'm going to rewatch some of the following games to see if and how those teams involve or don't involve their fifth "corner guy" into the offense.

Auburn vs Creighton
Florida vs UConn
Illinois vs Xavier
Alabama vs St. Mary's

I want to see if these teams just park a guy in the corner a lot like we seem to do. My guess is most of them don't do it nearly as much as we seem to do. Maybe Creighton will be similar since they seemed to have a similar team profile to Illinois.
 
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#607      
DJM
Calvin said:
This is the easiest narrative imo. If was 20 years ago, we'd be happy with getting to the tournament and winning one knowing guys were coming back, and that freshmen become sophomores. But as a one-shot roster, this was a high level of inconsistency, made moreso by heavy use of the 3. Great ceiling, awful floor kind of team. And for that kind of team, you can usually tell if they're peaking late in the year based on how they progress. KJ oozes potential, but never seemed to get a read on how to be a floor general with these guys. And the costly turnovers, ouch! Some really nice pieces here and a lot to like, but not the kind of team that I expected to make a run (had them losing in the 2nd round). In my limited experience, teams that really tighten down the defense in crunch time are teams that make runs or survive off nights, and I never felt like they embraced that kind of identity as the season went on.

One thing that's odd to me is how we've had good interior guys and obviously massive success with Kofi, but this year we bet way more on perimeter shooting. Riley really impressed me how he worked on his body and got more physical and attacking as the season went on, but I missed TSJ. Leadership, work ethic, money in transition, and a guy who could force teams to defend inside and put guys in foul trouble. Not trying to compare the two - Riley could be that in another year anyway if he wasn't already league ready.

I think this season legitimately raises questions about why the roster wasn't more tournament ready by March. Underwood's pretty flexible and seems to learn from every season, but I'd love to hear his unfiltered views on how his roster strategy and coaching panned out, and what he might change going forward. Who did he think would be the leader in March, and how did it play out?

The good was very good this year. Left us wanting more. Not looking forward to another massive turn-over.
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I agree. The staff needs to take a look as to why this team and others in the past are not mentally prepared for a game, especally a game when going into it you know it's a big game with high cosequences. This game was yet another example of not being prepared mentally at the start of a game. I know we were young but this isn't the first year of looking this way to start a game. The staff has to be better at it. Can't stand the antics of their coach but UConn came out as the aggressor and ready to throw down.
Mike Tyson said, "Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face". Although this may be true, many a fighter who has been punched in the face have come back to win a fight. The boxer knows he's going to get punched. Be ready, prepared and have a plan for when you get off the mat.
 
#608      
NarrowJ
OrangeBlue98 said:
I want to see if these teams just park a guy in the corner a lot like we seem to do. My guess is most of them don't do it nearly as much as we seem to do. Maybe Creighton will be similar since they seemed to have a similar team profile to Illinois.
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I snipped the rest of your post just because I laser-eyed on this part. Every team ever in the history of existence will typically have a guy in a corner. Why avoid that part of the floor (thus making the court smaller for your offense)?

If we seem to do it more often than others though - and you aren't really asking why its done at all - then that is because we are so PnR heavy this year, guys have to stay out of the way until either the PG or the big gets into the key/elbow/nail area and attracts defenders (which they can then cut to the rim too if their defender pays too much attention to the actual PnR action).
 
#609      
ChiefGritty
OrangeBlue98 said:
Placing a guy in the corner and telling him, "Hey, just stand there" makes it seem like we're playing 4 vs 4.5 or so while on offense.
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That depends entirely on how much the threat of that guy's 3 point shot sucks the gravity of the defense towards him (or gives him high percentage looks when the defense fails to stick with him).

Ben Humrichous is perfect for that role in theory. We never seemed to quite get there in practice.
 
#610      
Ryllini
AirNeazy said:
Yup. Kenpom Defensive Ranks for the last 6 seasons:

'20 (7 seed, tourney cancelled): #35 **Switched from extreme pressure defense this season
'21: (1 seed): #7
'22: (4 seed) #29
'23: (9 seed): #26
'24: (3 seed): #80 **Hamer put in charge of defensive schemes
'25: (6 seed): #41 **Hamer still in charge of defense
🤷‍♂️

I said this on the other thread, but if we just have a top 30 defense last year and this year, we're running away with the B1G title and almost locks for the Final Four....DEFENSE WINS TITLES!
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If I remember correctly, to start both 23/4 and 24/5 seasons, the defense was lights out. Top 20 in efficiency to start. For whatever reason, the defense seems to get scouted out and there is never another chess piece moved by our staff on that side of the ball.
 
#611      
OrangeBlue98
NarrowJ said:
I snipped the rest of your post just because I laser-eyed on this part. Every team ever in the history of existence will typically have a guy in a corner. Why avoid that part of the floor (thus making the court smaller for your offense)?

If we seem to do it more often than others though - and you aren't really asking why its done at all - then that is because we are so PnR heavy this year, guys have to stay out of the way until either the PG or the big gets into the key/elbow/nail area and attracts defenders (which they can then cut to the rim too if their defender pays too much attention to the actual PnR action).
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I'm not saying NEVER use the corner. Like I said, you won't find a bigger proponent of spacing the floor than I am. Watching little kid's soccer or little kid's basketball where they are playing "herd ball" is not a fun experience. I get using as much of the floor as possible.

As I'll continue to say, how can you maximize the effectiveness of that corner guy outside of just having him stand out there? Fully understand you want to leave enough room for the starting pick and roll when you're running a ball-screen initiator for your offense, but when does that corner player become a more viable option for the offense? There were times where, even though the metrics clearly showed we were awfully efficient offensively in totality, that teams with good scouting could figure us out.

It just feels like Illinois could get the impact of spacing to the corner by implementing some more off-ball movement. While I obviously cannot stand Bruce Pearl, the offensive innovation at Auburn is pretty impressive. They seem to find ways to achieve the desired impact (space the floor both horizontally and vertically, including in the corners) while utilizing movement.

briangeisinger.substack.com

Big Flex: How Auburn operates the nation's No. 1 Offense

A deep dive on Auburn's offense, why the Flex offense continues to cook, and the early-season dominance of Johni Broome
briangeisinger.substack.com briangeisinger.substack.com

This article provides some good examples of how to utilize pindown screens (or "down screens" as those of us who played many years ago would probably call them) to free someone to get to the corner.

medium.com

“Pindown”

Term: Pindown
medium.com medium.com
 
#612      
ptgrd23
2024 - very old team 5 SR/GRAD
Brought back: Coleman SR, TSJ Grad Goode JR Dainja Redshirt JR Rodgers Soph
Portal: Marcus Grad Quincy Grad Harmon Grad
HS: Nico, Amani, DGL

2025 - very young team 1 SR/GRAD
Brought back: DGL Soph
Portal: Kylan JR, Tre JR Ben Grad Carey Soph Jake Soph
HS/Intl: KJ Fresh Tomas Fresh Will Fresh Morez Fresh

It was interesting experiment but I think its clear that "old" teams do better in NCAA tourney.

1. I am hoping we keep our non NBA core - Tomas , Kylan, Morez, DGL, Jake, Ben, Carey, Jacksys (8)
2. We have 2 HS guards coming in Brandon Lee 6'3" and Keaton Wagler 6'6" . Rumoured to be involved with 6'6" Dame Sarr Italy He would be 19 year old freshman. FC Barcelona not playing much.
3. It would be incredible but maybe last game might induce KJ or Will to come back for another year
4. I would love to see more SR and Grad portal players - Alfonso, TSJ, Marcus and Quincy were great adds. Even Justin and Mathew M had their moments.
 
#613      
jrichisamazing
Haven't read the rest of this thread, but it sucks that our defense actually was solid this game, but our offense failed us. Especially when it's against a Kentucky team that isn't known for defense.

When you get knocked out, you always want the other team to earn it and it doesn't feel like we did. Felt like we beat ourselves.
 
#614      
aaeismacgychel
AirNeazy said:
Lmao, I'm old enough to remember when everyone and their grandmother was claiming that motion offense was dead and we needed to move onto the bright and shiny PnR only offense of Groce. Glad to see things come full circle!
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I was going to post almost exactly the same. I vaguely recall how the fanbase felt about the motion offense at the end of the Weber era, haha. That said, I honestly would like to hear Bruce's take on what he would've tried doing with the current roster considering it's youth and lack of physicality. While it would have never happened obviously, I feel fairly confident in saying that if Brad brought Bruce in as a special advisor for a day, he'd have done more for the defense in that 1 session than Hamer did all season.

Honestly though, thinking on Weber, what sunk us outside the turnovers this game was just our complete lack of movement off the ball last night. When our offense is buzzing, everyone is moving and making cuts and when we've had our share of bad games it has just stagnated. And that was one of Weber's big issues during his down years as well, he couldn't figure out a way to get his players the move the way he wanted off ball for the motion offense to work and he was too stubborn to switch out of it. So what we saw last night in many ways sort of felt like a later years Weber offensive game just with more ovrrall talent. KJ's play would've straight up broken his brain though
 
#615      
ugottabjoshinme
jrichisamazing said:
Haven't read the rest of this thread, but it sucks that our defense actually was solid this game, but our offense failed us. Especially when it's against a Kentucky team that isn't known for defense.

When you get knocked out, you always want the other team to earn it and it doesn't feel like we did. Felt like we beat ourselves.
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Larry David Reaction GIF
 
#616      
Illiniguy13
jrichisamazing said:
Haven't read the rest of this thread, but it sucks that our defense actually was solid this game, but our offense failed us. Especially when it's against a Kentucky team that isn't known for defense.

When you get knocked out, you always want the other team to earn it and it doesn't feel like we did. Felt like we beat ourselves.
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Please look at Kentucky’s 2nd half field goal percentage this game
 
#617      
Illini2010-11
Illiniguy13 said:
Please look at Kentucky’s 2nd half field goal percentage this game
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Hey, our free throw defense was actually pretty solid yesterday. They only shot .600 from the line.

I thought the defensive gameplan was not good at all, but it is really hard to tell, given all of the live ball turnovers. Kentucky scored 26 points off turnovers (-18 differential). That was the game right there.
 
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#618      
I-L-L
Second place is 1st loser said:
Those are all very fair and reasonable takes. With Rutgers, I agree, we definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole again.

Also, Dusty May's just cannot be discounted. He's done an amazing job, that said ....look at what they brought back. They were a senior leader away from a first round KO to UC San Diego. Bringing the two bigs in, both with significant experience, helped during the late season meltdown they had. Their experience and sheer physical size was the difference.

So, while I don't disagree with you whatsoever, each team's set of circumstances is different and each roster makeup in different. If he had Golden in the paint, Williams doesn't have a field day picking us apart yesterday.

My eyes have now moved towards the portal. We'll have a really group coming back, BUT there are some glaring holes that need to be addressed. I just want them addressed with physically ready and experience US Juniors, Seniors and grad students.
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And mainly what I'd like to see is a big force down low. I know that might not fit the 5 out offense, but when we have to go up against big fellas they own us in the paint. We don't even need the big fella to be a force offensively if the other four guys on the court can score. We just need a big guy that owns/protects the paint. The second piece is a true sharp shooter like Plumber (would like more size) or best case scenario Brea who can flat out shoot. If we have a dead-eye 3 point shooter and a big fella to protect down low we are going to be a load next year with KB, Morez, Ivisic, possibly White, Sarr, and supposedly a couple of stud portal guys. And I'm perfectly fine if the two stud portal guys are the big fella and sharpshooter.
 
#619      
NarrowJ
OrangeBlue98 said:
I'm not saying NEVER use the corner. Like I said, you won't find a bigger proponent of spacing the floor than I am. Watching little kid's soccer or little kid's basketball where they are playing "herd ball" is not a fun experience. I get using as much of the floor as possible.

As I'll continue to say, how can you maximize the effectiveness of that corner guy outside of just having him stand out there? Fully understand you want to leave enough room for the starting pick and roll when you're running a ball-screen initiator for your offense, but when does that corner player become a more viable option for the offense? There were times where, even though the metrics clearly showed we were awfully efficient offensively in totality, that teams with good scouting could figure us out.

It just feels like Illinois could get the impact of spacing to the corner by implementing some more off-ball movement. While I obviously cannot stand Bruce Pearl, the offensive innovation at Auburn is pretty impressive. They seem to find ways to achieve the desired impact (space the floor both horizontally and vertically, including in the corners) while utilizing movement.

briangeisinger.substack.com

Big Flex: How Auburn operates the nation's No. 1 Offense

A deep dive on Auburn's offense, why the Flex offense continues to cook, and the early-season dominance of Johni Broome
briangeisinger.substack.com briangeisinger.substack.com

This article provides some good examples of how to utilize pindown screens (or "down screens" as those of us who played many years ago would probably call them) to free someone to get to the corner.

medium.com

“Pindown”

Term: Pindown
medium.com medium.com
Click to expand...

Normally I'd just click like as to not continue for too long on one thing and monopolize thread space, but your response was rather impressive so just wanted to say so.

I agree, wrinkles like a simple pin down (yes I'm old lol so that term is 100% fine with me) as the PnR action begins could enhance things. But, who knows, and this is just me thinking out loud here, but there has been a lot of emphasis in contemporary offense to minimize wasted movement so you might get others who argue its unnecessary and the 'hovering' in a spot while you're safely out of the way for a moment allows guys to rest, ie, not waste movement, etcetera.
 
#620      
grue2
bluemountain said:
if I'm a player who is talented enough to be drafted in the first round, I00% I go pro as soon as I can. You get access to the best coaching, the best facilities, the best training, you compete against the best players day in and day out - it is a no brainer. Do you really think another year playing for Brad Underwood will prepare him better than a year playing for Greg Popovich or Steve Kerr?
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While I mostly agree with go in the first round if you can, there is a downside. It starts the clock. Most players don't make it past their first contract. Are your odds better if you spend another year in college before starting the clock? If part of the issue is not being physically ready, Fletch probably matches what you get on the NBA level.

The gamble of coming back:
- Injuries can cause your stock to go down, possibly to zero.
- Your play doesn't improve (or regresses), your stock goes down.
- A years delay reduces your lifetime income by your final years NBA salary, IF you make it. [Which is also more money than you'll ever need if you made it.]

The upside of coming back:
- Improved play can move you up, possibly into lottery money.
- You are more ready to compete when you get drafted. Both in skills, and a physically.
- You get another year on campus. For most, that is probably considered a win. You can never get those memories / experiences back if you skip them.
 
#621      
bluemountain
jrichisamazing said:
Haven't read the rest of this thread, but it sucks that our defense actually was solid this game, but our offense failed us. Especially when it's against a Kentucky team that isn't known for defense.

When you get knocked out, you always want the other team to earn it and it doesn't feel like we did. Felt like we beat ourselves.
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Our defense was terrible...UK missed a fair number of easy shots and we only forced 5 TO's. I do agree thought that we shot ourselves in the foot on offense with stupid turnovers
 
#623      
PepeSilvia
gibb52 said:
KY was beatable. Just simply gave them too many extra possessions with TO's. Our D wasn't great for sure, but not what got us beat, They scored 84 pts. If we don't give them 14 extra chances they don't score 84 pts. I realize it's hard to play an entire game without turning it over a few times but if we only had 7 TO's for example we almost certainly win the dang game. On to next year.
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It was just kind of who this Illini team was. Turned the ball over, stagnant offense that shoots too many 3's, and they weren't able to dominate the boards enough to pull off a win(12 offensive rebounds vs 9).

Illinois went 9-32 from 3 while Kentucky when 8-21. Illinois took more 3pt attempts than 2pt attempts.

18-30 from 2. EV of 1.2 pts per attempt(not including free throws).
9-32 from 3. EV of .84 pts per attempt.

I understand basketball isn't played on spreadsheets but Illinois was a bad 3 pt shooting team that struggled when they settled for too many 3s and failed to control the offensive glass.

Simply a talented team that wasted too many possessions whether being the result of being careless with the ball or poor shot selection. Would have liked to see some adjustments made on the offensive end like last year but they always seemed to revert back to same thing this year.

If you watched UConn's offense it was like night and day from this Illini one and I think Illinois had far more individual talent.
 
#624      
NarrowJ
jrichisamazing said:
I'm not saying they locked Kentucky down, but they were good enough to win. The live ball turnovers inflated UK's offensive numbers.
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I think they made their first 8 shots of the 2nd half, mostly layups but a couple Brea jumpers where people forgot he existed

Both halves started out extremely bad... if we win the first 6 minutes of either half, we probably win the game (jmo)
 
#625      
Illiniguy13
NarrowJ said:
I think they made their first 8 shots of the 2nd half, mostly layups but a couple Brea jumpers where people forgot he existed

Both halves started out extremely bad... if we win the first 6 minutes of either half, we probably win the game (jmo)
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Indy pointed out in the game thread that we are constantly guarding from behind. I’ve never seen a team regularly do that before. Just a strange scheme that clearly doesn’t work
 
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