Memorial Stadium
- Status
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I'm not sure I 100% understand the request, so my bad if I am missing something ... but are you imagining something kind of like what was floated several years ago as our official plan (and was later abandoned)?
I would love to get a look at more angles of this design, but it looks like it would move the first row of the Horseshoe down to be in line with the corners, and it would put luxury suites on both the top and bottom. I think the vast majority of fans would take this in a heartbeat and consider it to be an absolute home run ... the main reason (IMO) that a lot of us are floating alternative designs is out of suspicion that we will eventually go with something less expensive that what is pictured above.
KBLEE
- Montgomery, IL
Here's a pic from a relatively new stadium (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium) with 17,500 seats in a single-tier stand that was built to create a "wall of sound" during home matches. We don't need that many seats, but it shows what is architecturally possible.
I lol'd at "we don't need that many seats."
If we did get a SEZ that's comparable to the 2014 concept, moving the student section to the SEZ with GA seating sections (space permitting) would be nice. It would be great if the student section could fill that...
If we did get a SEZ that's comparable to the 2014 concept, moving the student section to the SEZ with GA seating sections (space permitting) would be nice. It would be great if the student section could fill that...
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Yeah, I am beginning to actually think that the ultimate win-win scenario is to turn the NORTH End Zone into this luxury-oriented, revenue-generating area and make the SEZ much simpler and catered toward the gameday environment (e.g., having students there, trapping sound, keeping with the architectural style of the stadium, etc.). In other words, we should reserve a flashy new structure for the NEZ and make the SEZ into something like a "fan wall," as shown with the Tottenham photo, previous Borussia Dortmund ones I have posted, the new Clippers arena idea, etc.
RE: The 17K seats thing, I will reiterate my opinion that capacity is just a game. As one example, walling off the east side seats to match the west side literally gives us like 7k (!!) seats to work with in the SEZ:
Current Design (West and East Don't Match)
Renovation - West/East Match Design
And on a related but theoretically separate note, it is ALL about how you are distributing that capacity. I have posted before about this like literally a few pages ago, but cramming as many crappy seats as possible into a super gradually sloped section like the Horseshoe gets you a structure that looks short and unintimidating...
Horseshoe: ~10K seats
And this structure at Arkansas literally has half the capacity!
Arkansas: ~5K seats
And we could build something with ZERO added capacity to the current Horseshoe that still somehow ends up looking this much taller and better, lol...
Iowa: ~10K seats
Again ... I know I am a broken record. However, the Horseshoe is truly the worst of every possibility:
1. Close to the field? Nope.
2. Steep slope to create a tall structure to trap noise? Nope.
3. Comfortable/new seats? Nope.
The trend in stadiums is (rightfully) to build sections that lean closer to height/grandness than maximizing capacity in a smaller space. If you are going to build a section with 10K seats, you sure as well want Iowa's north end zone over the Horseshoe for the same number of fans, haha.
EDIT: It is helpful to look at this at the "stadium level," too! Consider these two examples:
The old Ryan Field at Northwestern had a little more than 47k seats and looked like this...
... and Minnesota's new stadium, which has barely over 2k more seats, looks like this...
Minnesota's design is so much cooler architecturally (though I do think they made the stands WAY too gradual, hurting the gameday environment) because it didn't cram fans into as small of a space as possible.
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Shief
- Champaign Area
@Fighter of the Nightman, I am on the road this week for work but I will try to create a rough setup over the weekend.I'm not sure I 100% understand the request, so my bad if I am missing something ... but are you imagining something kind of like what was floated several years ago as our official plan (and was later abandoned)?
I would love to get a look at more angles of this design, but it looks like it would move the first row of the Horseshoe down to be in line with the corners, and it would put luxury suites on both the top and bottom. I think the vast majority of fans would take this in a heartbeat and consider it to be an absolute home run ... the main reason (IMO) that a lot of us are floating alternative designs is out of suspicion that we will eventually go with something less expensive that what is pictured above.
I like your other post about the NEZ having some kind of unique tall and revenue generating structure. I do not know how much the ARC/IMPE might impact that process. However, that could allow the SEZ to be rebuilt closer to the back of the endzone and retain a horseshoe shape but go to the ground and then have additional rows behind, compared to the current setup. I will see what I can sketch later, unless someone beats me to it.
there are really really good architectural firms out there , most with staff and execs with UI ties, that will be invited to the party to design this at the right time
there are ways to get this done correctly , and Josh knows this . this won’t be some short circuited deal that schools like Notre Dame like to do
I have faith in our leadership .
in Josh I trust
in Bret I trust
there are ways to get this done correctly , and Josh knows this . this won’t be some short circuited deal that schools like Notre Dame like to do
I have faith in our leadership .
in Josh I trust
in Bret I trust
I realize symmetry and all, but what about moving the field closer to the horseshoe instead of vice versa? Then bring the NEZ seats and the existing horseshoe seats closer to grade. That seems far less expensive than demolishing the horseshoe.
If they still need seats add them behind the existing horseshoe. Or, perhaps add an balcony over it mimicking the east and west balcony.
Shief
- Champaign Area
@Fighter of the Nightman, I finally had some time to roughly sketch my recent idea of the Horseshoe.
So, I am borrowing your image of the ESL and WSL having box seats, removing the upper ~25 rows of the ESL. The East Great Hall can then be renovated to mirror the West Great Hall and the East Upper Deck will then have food vendors, restrooms, and other amenities added.
The Horseshoe will then be torn down and rebuilt to be closer to the back of the SEZ, creating a large wall. The new Horseshow will have 60x to 70x rows and a small tunnel behind the goalpost. Beneath the Horseshoe structure, a new South Hall (roughly taking up the orange area) will be created linking the East and West Great Halls. The South Hall will include food vendors, restrooms, merchandise shops, etc. and other amenities. At the ground level, below the South Hall, can be either an expanded building facilities area or an Illini sports museum, I would prefer the museum. The new Horseshoe/South Hall will then have a beautiful facade that will blend with the original structure. The scoreboard can go behind the new Horseshoe and I like the idea of some supporting decorations - a colonnade, smaller video boards, etc. - to the side of the main scoreboard to help keep sound in.
For the NEZ, I drew a simple square two-tiered stand but can be talked into something more elaborate, maybe taking a page from Iowa's new stand. My preferred setup would be another Horseshoe in the NEZ, to give us a complete bowl, but the ARC/IMPE is likely in the way.
What are others thoughts?
Sidelines with Box Seats
Horseshoe 'Wall'
Stadium Top View
Horse Facade (?)
So, I am borrowing your image of the ESL and WSL having box seats, removing the upper ~25 rows of the ESL. The East Great Hall can then be renovated to mirror the West Great Hall and the East Upper Deck will then have food vendors, restrooms, and other amenities added.
The Horseshoe will then be torn down and rebuilt to be closer to the back of the SEZ, creating a large wall. The new Horseshow will have 60x to 70x rows and a small tunnel behind the goalpost. Beneath the Horseshoe structure, a new South Hall (roughly taking up the orange area) will be created linking the East and West Great Halls. The South Hall will include food vendors, restrooms, merchandise shops, etc. and other amenities. At the ground level, below the South Hall, can be either an expanded building facilities area or an Illini sports museum, I would prefer the museum. The new Horseshoe/South Hall will then have a beautiful facade that will blend with the original structure. The scoreboard can go behind the new Horseshoe and I like the idea of some supporting decorations - a colonnade, smaller video boards, etc. - to the side of the main scoreboard to help keep sound in.
For the NEZ, I drew a simple square two-tiered stand but can be talked into something more elaborate, maybe taking a page from Iowa's new stand. My preferred setup would be another Horseshoe in the NEZ, to give us a complete bowl, but the ARC/IMPE is likely in the way.
What are others thoughts?
Sidelines with Box Seats
Horseshoe 'Wall'
Stadium Top View
Horse Facade (?)
This has been my biggest pet peeve: Tarping over all of those seats looks terrible. Either lower the field or move the wall back and remove the seats. Even removing the seats and planting shrubs between the wall and the seats would be better than what we currently have.
Honestly, I don’t care what they do. I just want video boards on both endzones…
Tired of having to do a 130 degree turn of my head to see some plays.
Tired of having to do a 130 degree turn of my head to see some plays.
Robert talked about this in his most recent Q and A podcast. Made me realize how much Lovie truly screwed this program, both on and off the field. It was his idea to kill the horseshoe project and why it's stayed as it stands today.
We haven't needed to expand capacity until this very moment so there's been little financial incentive to put major dollars into such a project simply because the current south endzone looks god awful. Hopefully with a few more sell out seasons we can see an uptick in demand and in donor contributions.
I, personally, would love to see both the stands brought closer to the field and an increase in the angle of the seats to both maximize capacity and make a more intimidating environment. I don't know if the ticket demand would be high enough to constitute a two level horseshoe, but I'd love to see that.
We haven't needed to expand capacity until this very moment so there's been little financial incentive to put major dollars into such a project simply because the current south endzone looks god awful. Hopefully with a few more sell out seasons we can see an uptick in demand and in donor contributions.
I, personally, would love to see both the stands brought closer to the field and an increase in the angle of the seats to both maximize capacity and make a more intimidating environment. I don't know if the ticket demand would be high enough to constitute a two level horseshoe, but I'd love to see that.
As a 7th decade Illini football fan, I really want to accelerate stadium renovations. For those more knowledgeable than me, could private equity (with all its warts) help?
My son played in a game at Arkansas and said it was incredibly loud and intimidating.
I haven’t listened to the podcast, but was the choice made between the Smith Center over the horseshoe? The Smith center has been an integral and critical part of building the program.
The horseshoe is awful, but based on where we were with attendance, and the lack of a practice facility, it seems like the right choice was made there. Building the practice facility within the horseshoe and not having it attached to the indoor field would have been a huge mistake.
no
private equity invests in things that payoff quickly to the tune of 30% . investing in bricks & mortar and things like that are a LONG TERM deal .
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Another random thought RE: Memorial Stadium on a slow Monday. I was talking to a friend on Saturday how we both think stadiums with steep stands are infinitely cooler than stadiums with very gradual slopes. The two most infamous examples of stadiums with way too gradual of a slope are probably the Rose Bowl and the Big House, with it being very commonplace to point out that the latter really suffers in comparison to other elite home field environments at effectively trapping crowd noise and creating a loud and intimidating environment.
I find this particularly interesting with the Rose Bowl, as it can look like a massive stadium from overhead and no bigger than Cal's 60k-seat bowl when looking at a field-level photo, lol. Anyway, all this is to say that it got me thinking how odd it was that Memorial Stadium seems to utilize at least three quite different angles for our stands.
East & West Main: Pretty standard slope back from the field, if a tiny bit on the gradual side.
East Balcony: It looks like from this aerial photo that the East Balcony stands are actually significantly steeper than the lower bowl.
The Horseshoe: Everyone's favorite punching bag! The Horseshoe stands seem like they MAYBE go back at the same angle as the East/West Main sections, but it honestly looks like the slope becomes even more gradual. Maybe someone who frequents MS more than I do and has hiked up these aisles can opine, haha. Either way, given the Horseshoe has no upper deck or other structure behind it, this is an incredibly ineffective design for end zone seats, and it likely allows a lot more crowd noise to escape Memorial Stadium than should be the case!!
TL;DR
I think it will be a HUGE miss if whatever replaces the Horseshoe in the SEZ is not intentionally built to be a steep and imposing structure. You can accomplish everything else the DIA might want (e.g., revenue-generating suites or something) with either a gradual slope or a steep slope, but you can ONLY help the gameday environment and home field advantage by trapping more crowd noise ... and gradual slopes don't do that.
After all, the 59k fans in this photo...
... are louder than the 110k fans in this photo 10 times out of 10, simply because of how each stadium was built...
I find this particularly interesting with the Rose Bowl, as it can look like a massive stadium from overhead and no bigger than Cal's 60k-seat bowl when looking at a field-level photo, lol. Anyway, all this is to say that it got me thinking how odd it was that Memorial Stadium seems to utilize at least three quite different angles for our stands.
East & West Main: Pretty standard slope back from the field, if a tiny bit on the gradual side.
East Balcony: It looks like from this aerial photo that the East Balcony stands are actually significantly steeper than the lower bowl.
The Horseshoe: Everyone's favorite punching bag! The Horseshoe stands seem like they MAYBE go back at the same angle as the East/West Main sections, but it honestly looks like the slope becomes even more gradual. Maybe someone who frequents MS more than I do and has hiked up these aisles can opine, haha. Either way, given the Horseshoe has no upper deck or other structure behind it, this is an incredibly ineffective design for end zone seats, and it likely allows a lot more crowd noise to escape Memorial Stadium than should be the case!!
TL;DR
I think it will be a HUGE miss if whatever replaces the Horseshoe in the SEZ is not intentionally built to be a steep and imposing structure. You can accomplish everything else the DIA might want (e.g., revenue-generating suites or something) with either a gradual slope or a steep slope, but you can ONLY help the gameday environment and home field advantage by trapping more crowd noise ... and gradual slopes don't do that.
After all, the 59k fans in this photo...
... are louder than the 110k fans in this photo 10 times out of 10, simply because of how each stadium was built...
Sounds like we keep landing on the 2014 render as the complete package. How do we feel about moving the student section to the center five columns of a renovated SEZ?
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
I think that would be awesome, as having the students in the end zone is NOT the problem ... in fact, most stadiums with an awesome home field advantage actually have them there or by a corner. The problem with the NEZ is that it is an elevated and removed structure with no enclosure on either corner, so it seems like the students' (and the Marching Illini's, for that matter!) noise just gets lost in the wind. That problem would be avoided with a rebuilt SEZ structure that goes down to field level and has the height/enclosure to trap noise.
However, I think we would have to effectively spruce up the NEZ or somewhere else (maybe matching suites on the east side to match the west??) to get the DIA to go with this. After all, the SEZ has to "pay for itself" over the long haul, and students don't pay big bucks for their tickets! I actually think a possibly more realistic-yet-still-great scenario is to build something in the SEZ that is desirable and appealing even in the end zone, charge a premium for those seats, offer to relocate prime ticketholders to that fancy new area at a discount and then get the students back in the section currently taken up by visiting fans and the couple ones to the other side of it in West Main. If we give those ticketholders an awesome new alternative, they might be more inclined to let the students return to where they always used to be.
Shief
- Champaign Area
@Fighter of the Nightman, many pages back, I kicked around the idea of adding the extra rows above/behind the horseshoe to make it taller but then add some premium seats, a la Clemson's stadium. What do you think about rebuilding the horseshoe so that the lower rows are like 10 or 15 ft behind the back of the EZ, with there being 60 to 70 rows of bench seats and then the premium seating area? The scoreboard can then be placed above/behind the premium seats.Another random thought RE: Memorial Stadium on a slow Monday. I was talking to a friend on Saturday how we both think stadiums with steep stands are infinitely cooler than stadiums with very gradual slopes. The two most infamous examples of stadiums with way too gradual of a slope are probably the Rose Bowl and the Big House, with it being very commonplace to point out that the latter really suffers in comparison to other elite home field environments at effectively trapping crowd noise and creating a loud and intimidating environment.
I find this particularly interesting with the Rose Bowl, as it can look like a massive stadium from overhead and no bigger than Cal's 60k-seat bowl when looking at a field-level photo, lol. Anyway, all this is to say that it got me thinking how odd it was that Memorial Stadium seems to utilize at least three quite different angles for our stands.
East & West Main: Pretty standard slope back from the field, if a tiny bit on the gradual side.
East Balcony: It looks like from this aerial photo that the East Balcony stands are actually significantly steeper than the lower bowl.
The Horseshoe: Everyone's favorite punching bag! The Horseshoe stands seem like they MAYBE go back at the same angle as the East/West Main sections, but it honestly looks like the slope becomes even more gradual. Maybe someone who frequents MS more than I do and has hiked up these aisles can opine, haha. Either way, given the Horseshoe has no upper deck or other structure behind it, this is an incredibly ineffective design for end zone seats, and it likely allows a lot more crowd noise to escape Memorial Stadium than should be the case!!
TL;DR
I think it will be a HUGE miss if whatever replaces the Horseshoe in the SEZ is not intentionally built to be a steep and imposing structure. You can accomplish everything else the DIA might want (e.g., revenue-generating suites or something) with either a gradual slope or a steep slope, but you can ONLY help the gameday environment and home field advantage by trapping more crowd noise ... and gradual slopes don't do that.
After all, the 59k fans in this photo...
... are louder than the 110k fans in this photo 10 times out of 10, simply because of how each stadium was built...
As for the NEZ, I would like to see it also rebuilt to keep crown noise in, have seats close to the back of the endzone, and be imposing. It can be a tiered structure like Iowa's, a 'wall' like the ~2014 rendering, or another 60 to 70 row horseshoe. My request would be to have something that fits in with the classic design of MS.
Attachments
Shief
- Champaign Area
Or, a completely radical idea, what about rebuilding the NEZ to be a horseshoe shape, with 60 to 70 rows of bleachers and then premium boxes above/behind (to keep the noise in)? Then, the SEZ could be torn down and rebuilt to be a new separate structure that will be a wall of fans with the main scoreboard behind (a la Texas Memorial Stadium or others)?
Attachments
Agree the NEZ has exceeded its useful life. I almost suggested we raze it and vacate Irwin and rebuild the NEZ as a horseshoe a few pages back. There are some loading bays back there, not sure if they can get moved elsewhere...
I think in the medium term, we should move forward with the SEZ project and try to get to 70-75k seats. If we have a decade+ of sustained success, razing the NEZ for something that isn't barebones is justifiable.
I think in the medium term, we should move forward with the SEZ project and try to get to 70-75k seats. If we have a decade+ of sustained success, razing the NEZ for something that isn't barebones is justifiable.
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Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Using this post to sort of spew my random thoughts, haha. I don't mind adding extra rows onto the structure of the existing Horseshoe structure, but I think it would ideally go along with lowering the field. Even though bringing the first row of the Horseshoe down to field level would be a M-A-S-S-I-V-E improvement to the current situation, even our East/West Main stands are WAY too far from the field! Those issues unfortunately cannot be solved without lowering the field due to the players standing and blocking the view, but you have no such issue with the SEZ. Thus, I would just favor a brand new structure that gets fans as close as possible. For example, the NEZ structure is much closer to the end zone than the East/West Main stands are to the sidelines because it doesn't force itself to "match" the rest of the stadium ... and if we just renovated the Horseshoe, we WOULD have to "match" where it starts with the rest of the stands.
On that note, I am generally a fan of stadiums that are in some way unique. If we are going to keep a horseshoe setup, do it like Ohio State and have at least one end that is clearly the "non-horseshoe" aesthetic. This is nothing more than my subjective opinion, but my least favorite type of stadium is like what Rutgers has, where you have a small bowl that happens to have an upper deck only on the sides:
I find it just fundamentally uninteresting. It's too small to be a proper bowl (as LSU's Tiger Stadium actually WAS before its renovation, as shown below!), it's too round to have more of a "squared-in" aesthetic, it's not a horseshoe, etc. I would want any MS renovation to avoid making the SEZ and NEZ look too similar UNLESS both are "squared-in" and match what the East Main and East Balcony sides look like to complete the stadium's aesthetic. If we are going to keep the SEZ as a Horseshoe, I would hope we take inspiration from what LSU did in trying to give that structure as much height as possible:
Before (Field View)
After (Field View)
Before (Aerial View)
After (Aerial View)
You will notice that they actually added VERY few new seats, but now the stadium looks a lot more complete and visually imposing. I hope we prioritize creating something tall and filling in as much open space as possible with whatever we do to the SEZ. Then we can do whatever we want with the NEZ, and there is less pressure to get that end perfectly right.
We desperately need videos boards like this in the NEZ on the towers!!! If you are in the horseshoe and not in a corner you have to break your neck to see any type of replay or anything on the video board. To me this seems something rather easy the could be implemented and would make a drastic change for the better.Using this post to sort of spew my random thoughts, haha. I don't mind adding extra rows onto the structure of the existing Horseshoe structure, but I think it would ideally go along with lowering the field. Even though bringing the first row of the Horseshoe down to field level would be a M-A-S-S-I-V-E improvement to the current situation, even our East/West Main stands are WAY too far from the field! Those issues unfortunately cannot be solved without lowering the field due to the players standing and blocking the view, but you have no such issue with the SEZ. Thus, I would just favor a brand new structure that gets fans as close as possible. For example, the NEZ structure is much closer to the end zone than the East/West Main stands are to the sidelines because it doesn't force itself to "match" the rest of the stadium ... and if we just renovated the Horseshoe, we WOULD have to "match" where it starts with the rest of the stands.
On that note, I am generally a fan of stadiums that are in some way unique. If we are going to keep a horseshoe setup, do it like Ohio State and have at least one end that is clearly the "non-horseshoe" aesthetic. This is nothing more than my subjective opinion, but my least favorite type of stadium is like what Rutgers has, where you have a small bowl that happens to have an upper deck only on the sides:
I find it just fundamentally uninteresting. It's too small to be a proper bowl (as LSU's Tiger Stadium actually WAS before its renovation, as shown below!), it's too round to have more of a "squared-in" aesthetic, it's not a horseshoe, etc. I would want any MS renovation to avoid making the SEZ and NEZ look too similar UNLESS both are "squared-in" and match what the East Main and East Balcony sides look like to complete the stadium's aesthetic. If we are going to keep the SEZ as a Horseshoe, I would hope we take inspiration from what LSU did in trying to give that structure as much height as possible:
Before (Field View)
After (Field View)
Before (Aerial View)
After (Aerial View)
You will notice that they actually added VERY few new seats, but now the stadium looks a lot more complete and visually imposing. I hope we prioritize creating something tall and filling in as much open space as possible with whatever we do to the SEZ. Then we can do whatever we want with the NEZ, and there is less pressure to get that end perfectly right.
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