Michigan 84, Illinois 70 Postgame

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#701      
BashCtIllini
EmpoweredIllini said:
Framing the Keaton diamond-in-a-rough find as a negative? Wow lol only on Illinois Loyalty, I guess.

So the reason Stojakovic is a disappointment is because he isn't better than a top 5 pick? Lmfao, okay...
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You might want to take a course in reading comprehension. Where in the world did you get that Wagler being good is a negative?

The posts are about Stojakovic being a disappointment. He's disappointing because he is giving us nothing from farther than 6 ft from the hoop. And this is on a team where we jack 3s at a rate that would make Pistol Pete blush. That and the fact that he doesn't defend well, provides inconsistent value, is not working through injuries, and is not leading the team as he was expected, and is paid for are why he's a disappointment. The only way Wagler comes into this equation is because he saved this team. Don't think it was that hard to understand.

There's a new element to college basketball. If you're going to be the top paid player on the team. You are expected to be the best player.
 
#702      
bleedorange and blue
This whole conversation is why message boards suck. Everyone has an opinion and nobody really reads proceeding comments. Good or bad I support all the guys, always have always will.
 
#703      
Rap47
Every year there are people on here that pick a certain player and bad mouth him because they think they are smarter than the coaches. In this NIL age everyone is going to hit and miss on players and ripping a player on the team is not going to change that.Morez's dad shopped him around and he found a better deal. Michigan played better at every position in that game and that is wht they won.
 
#704      
CoalCity
So we got Keaton at a huge discount and that's bad? We found a player that none of the big brain elite blue blood coaches did and that's also bad?

You guys just make stuff up as you go, lol absolutely horrendous & embarrassing take there
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Even after it's mansplained to you, you still choose to ignore the point. At this juncture, its deliberate stupidity for the sake of argument.
 
#705      
EmpoweredIllini
BashCtIllini said:
You might want to take a course in reading comprehension. Where in the world did you get that Wagler being good is a negative?
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Framing it as a negative as if the staff hadn't identified him the team would be a mess. Those are your words that you wrote yourself.

BashCtIllini said:
The posts are about Stojakovic being a disappointment.
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Which he obviously hasn't been. As I and others have pointed out, he averaged 18 per game at Cal... he's not going to do that here... too many good players around him.

BashCtIllini said:
There's a new element to college basketball. If you're going to be the top paid player on the team. You are expected to be the best player.
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Meh........................................

Wemby is the 6th highest paid player on Spurs
CJ McCollum is highest paid on Hawks --> Jalen Johnson is their best player
Jayson Tatum is highest paid on Celtics --> isn't even playing this year
Anfernee Simons is highest paid on Bulls --> not their best player (Giddey)
Evan Mobley is highest paid on Cavs --> Donovan Mitchell is their best player
LeBron is highest paid on Lakers --> Luka is currently better than him
Towns is highest paid on Knicks --> Brunson is their best player and makes less than OG Anunoby
Franz Wagner is highest paid on Magic --> Paolo Banchero is their best player and is 4th in salary
Embiid is highest paid on 76ers --> Guy barely plays.... washed Paul George makes more than Tyrese Maxey who avg 30 ppg
Jrue Holiday is highest paid on Portland --> Avdija averages 26 ppg and far and away best player
Zach LaVine is highest paid on Sacramento --> a team that has Domantas Sabonis

Preseason expectations typically never match what actually happens and is why we play the actual games. Stojakovic has earned his salary more so than Josh Dix, Ian Jackson or Dame Sarr has which is also pretty important to consider.
 
#706      
AugustWest
Illiniguy13 said:
If Andrej is your first scoring option, you’re Cal. If he’s your 3rd or 4th best scoring option, you’re a good team. On paper, he makes a lot of sense here: a guy who gives us different wrinkles offensively (slashing/cutting/mid range/drawing fouls to add balance to our offense and be a matchup problem). This stuff in theory is quite valuable when shots aren’t falling. When he’s contributing in these ways, we look awesome. He’s just super boom-or-bust based on matchups. Intangibles are lacking.
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I don’t think we are doing him any favors with how we’re using him. We look awesome on offense at times when we switch and find a matchup we like. Andrej has abused smaller guards this year but it seems like we don’t seek out those mismatches as much with him. I think he could also be successful if we got him into bootyball and let his raise up over a smaller defender. We’ve gone away from that to being more of a perimeter team this year
 
#707      
Battle89
BashCtIllini said:
You might want to take a course in reading comprehension. Where in the world did you get that Wagler being good is a negative?

The posts are about Stojakovic being a disappointment. He's disappointing because he is giving us nothing from farther than 6 ft from the hoop. And this is on a team where we jack 3s at a rate that would make Pistol Pete blush. That and the fact that he doesn't defend well, provides inconsistent value, is not working through injuries, and is not leading the team as he was expected, and is paid for are why he's a disappointment. The only way Wagler comes into this equation is because he saved this team. Don't think it was that hard to understand.

There's a new element to college basketball. If you're going to be the top paid player on the team. You are expected to be the best player.
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He's willfully missing the point, and arguing just to argue. Topped off with editing his own post to add what miserable people are on here, because apparently the insults were missed in the original writeup.

All for a relatively innocuous premise, that AS has not lived up to expectations, nor payout value. That does not mean that AS stinks, or is evil, has not had some good games, or has been completely healthy. It means that he has performed below expectations, while KW has performed above expectations, and overall the team is probably about where it should be.
 
#708      
NarrowJ
Battle89 said:
He's willfully missing the point, and arguing just to argue. Topped off with editing his own post to add what miserable people are on here, because apparently the insults were missed in the original writeup.

All for a relatively innocuous premise, that AS has not lived up to expectations, nor payout value. That does not mean that AS stinks, or is evil, has not had some good games, or has been completely healthy. It means that he has performed below expectations, while KW has performed above expectations, and overall the team is probably about where it should be.
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You guys aren't above the ad hominem stuff either... he also got pot shots... has no reading comprehension, etc etc, but go on with your holier-than-thou stuff lol its funny and is your usual go-to I've noticed

I mean, the most honest thing any of us could do here is to just admit we have no idea what these guys are actually being paid which renders this entire conversation to be pretty worthless

Sometimes players get injured too, and I'm not 100% certain that these lower body injuries haven't caused Andrej some issues throughout the year in games he's played in but maybe (probably) not been fully healthy
 
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#709      
Battle89
Guess we finally have proof of what I said a couple weeks ago, you and Empowered are the same person.

Cheap way to represent yourself, yet we're the 'miserable' ones.

1772469991734.png
 
#710      
NarrowJ
Battle89 said:
Guess we finally have proof of what I said a couple weeks ago, you and Empowered are the same person.

Cheap way to represent yourself, yet we're the 'miserable' ones.

View attachment 47926
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LOL okay, sure man...

Animated GIF


That solves it.. anyone who disagrees with you are all the same people lol
 
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#711      
Emerson Bigguns
BashCtIllini said:
You might want to take a course in reading comprehension. Where in the world did you get that Wagler being good is a negative?

The posts are about Stojakovic being a disappointment. He's disappointing because he is giving us nothing from farther than 6 ft from the hoop. And this is on a team where we jack 3s at a rate that would make Pistol Pete blush. That and the fact that he doesn't defend well, provides inconsistent value, is not working through injuries, and is not leading the team as he was expected, and is paid for are why he's a disappointment. The only way Wagler comes into this equation is because he saved this team. Don't think it was that hard to understand.

There's a new element to college basketball. If you're going to be the top paid player on the team. You are expected to be the best player.
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Is AS completely healthy? High ankle sprains are tricky and can linger. It can take months to fully recover, and that's without suiting up and playing high major basketball in an extremely physical conference... The fact that he is playing, shows, at least to me, that he is willing to work through injury. Recovery isn't always linear, as swelling and pain can be up and down, and the threat of re-aggravation is great. To what degree it is impacting his play, is probably only known by him and the coaching staff, but based on his minutes and on-court performance against Michigan, I'd bet he wasn't 100%.
 
#712      
Altuve27
I have seen him discussed a bit so I’ll jump in. My biggest issue with Andrej is he doesn’t pass the ball. When he gets the basketball teams KNOW the ball is going up, and it’s most likely going to be a drive. Be a willing passer and you will get the ball back.

@Second place is 1st loser had a fantastic post about why the offense is bogging down recently. Keaton, Kylan, and Andrej are all over dribbling. Move the ball. Make that extra pass to go from a good shot to a great shot.

And if you’re playing off the ball, don’t just stand there. Set a screen, back cut, flair out to the corner, etc. We have to get back to ball AND body movement.
 
#713      
NJB Illini
It is kind of crazy to think where this team would have been if Wagler didn't pan out the way he has this season.

If you go all the way back to the off-season thread(s), Stojakovic was our big fish. He was the "mystery guy" that we put all our chips on the table for. Easy to say in retrospect, but that seems like a pretty massive whiff by the staff.

If Wagler ended up being a project, it feels like this season would have been a lot worse. Then, you add in Petrovic, who essentially is getting paid to warm the bench for the other guys.

Somehow, someway, Brad needs to get these guys playing with the tenacity, grit, and toughness we saw for a good stretch in January/ early February. I hate seeing, two years in a row, our team creating more questions than answers heading into March. Our chemistry looks off, our effort sucks, we aren't boxing out, we aren't finding the best shots, etc. Easy to say all-of-the-above in loses, but man, you can just see it plain as day.

Figure it out.
 
#714      
RabidDawgClassic
Andrej is an electric penetrator… at times, unstoppable. Since the ankle sprain, he’s been noticeably slower at cutting the angles. I’d venture to say that’s hurting his confidence. And even without the injury, the Michigan game presented the worst possible matchup for him all season. With Mara and Morez in the paint, Andrej wasn’t gonna get to the hoop unless the rest of the team was hot from three. That’s the bad that goes with the good of his game.

Now… this is not to compare the two players, but TSJ his first year with the Illini was nothing compared to TSJ his super senior year. TSJ was a fine player his first year but he became special a year later. Can Andrej take that same leap? Hard to say, but those who are ready to cut him loose are very short sighted.
 
#715      
Calvin
Second place is 1st loser said:
Brad is doing exactly the right thing in his public messaging. He knows his guys. What he says to his team in private, we'll never know, but he knows the right buttons to push.
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Very few coaches know how to do that consistently, and you know who those coaches are because their teams play *hard* and you see the intensity on the court in any game that matters. They understand how to keep guys fresh and hungry, and when they're not, it doesn't last long because they have tools that work with different guys.

BU is obviously very competitive and has made strides in every aspect of his coaching IMO. However, I wouldn't put him in the elite category when it comes to having the team show up. I think every team lays an egg or two during the season, but the recent stretch goes beyond having an off night (or two). This is a really talented group of guys that's played at a FF level for a stretch, and more like a second round exit level recently. They're arguably victims of their own success --we see the ceiling and have set expectations near that level.

I'm really interested to see whether they get their morale back heading into the post season. This moment in the season feels a bit like a cliff hanger to me.
 
#716      
Indy Illini Fan
Dinger said:
If we're dogging Andrej as a 3pt shooter, Boswell has to take some heat. AS only shoots 2 a game, Bos keeps throwing them up, and lately they havent been very close
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I don’t disagree at all with this …

Wide open looks for both of them … Not going in …

And if that’s the case … What’s our answer on offense ??? We haven’t had one … Just keep chucking …

ZERO adjustments …
 
#717      
Indy Illini Fan
RabidDawgClassic said:
Andrej is an electric penetrator… at times, unstoppable. Since the ankle sprain, he’s been noticeably slower at cutting the angles. I’d venture to say that’s hurting his confidence. And even without the injury, the Michigan game presented the worst possible matchup for him all season. With Mara and Morez in the paint, Andrej wasn’t gonna get to the hoop unless the rest of the team was hot from three. That’s the bad that goes with the good of his game.

Now… this is not to compare the two players, but TSJ his first year with the Illini was nothing compared to TSJ his super senior year. TSJ was a fine player his first year but he became special a year later. Can Andrej take that same leap? Hard to say, but those who are ready to cut him loose are very short sighted.
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Comparing AS to a guy who’s in the rafters and arguably had the greatest single season in Illini history is just wild to me …

TJ is a one of one … At least in my book …
 
#718      
Curbelo Fanboy
Indy Illini Fan said:
I don’t disagree at all with this …

Wide open looks for both of them … Not going in …

And if that’s the case … What’s our answer on offense ??? We haven’t had one … Just keep chucking …

ZERO adjustments …
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Yep - in looking at our losses, only Wiscy did we shoot above 35% from 3. And that one was an outlier cause of the injury situation. Our other losses were less than 35% from deep. Of our wins, only @ Nebby & home vs T Tech did we shoot real poor from deep & beat a high caliber team. IU is borderline tourney team & we shot poor against them also.

But basically Brad has not demonstrated a way to consistently beat high caliber teams when the 3 ball doesn't drop. Bama 11-32, UCONN 6-29, Nebby (home) 10-29, @ MSU 10-36 Wiscy 15-33 @ UCLA 13-42 & Mich 9-29.

Of course when the 3 doesn't drop, no team is going to win as often, but the truly elite teams find another way to get it done. Instead we just keep letting it fly.
 
#719      
fatt lacosse
bigcityillini said:
Wild when you consider his march success lol
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I need to address this

Brad Underwood has only suffered one upset in March Madness.

Granted, it was The Big One. But it only happened once.

He's also only had one upset win by seed (over Iowa State a couple years ago)

As the sample size increases, the data tell us a more accurate story, and right now that story says the Underwood Illini will more or less do chalk.

That makes the 2/3 seed distinction important because that dictates whether we'll lose in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8
 
#720      
BrownTown
fatt lacosse said:
I need to address this

Brad Underwood has only suffered one upset in March Madness.

Granted, it was The Big One. But it only happened once.

He's also only had one upset win by seed (over Iowa State a couple years ago)

As the sample size increases, the data tell us a more accurate story, and right now that story says the Underwood Illini will more or less do chalk.

That makes the 2/3 seed distinction important because that dictates whether we'll lose in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8
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I think this a fair observation.

Though you forgot about Illinois 4-Houston 5 upset which is the same upset as a 3 -2 over Iowa State.

For what it's worth, had we beat Kentucky in the 6-3 spot last year, I think some of the Brad in March/big-time hatred would have persisted.

It's my belief, should we make consecutive 2nd weekend runs...that chatter about Brad will dissipate. Or making a weekend higher than your seeding would suggest....3 seed to the F4 for example.


I've had my bitterness about Brad in some moments but I'm not trading the consecutive 20 win seasons/highly talented offensive teams for any update an coming coach. Brad can stay as long as he wants as far as I'm concerned
 
#721      
EmpoweredIllini
BrownTown said:
I think this a fair observation.

Though you forgot about Illinois 4-Houston 5 upset which is the same upset as a 3 -2 over Iowa State.

For what it's worth, had we beat Kentucky in the 6-3 spot last year, I think some of the Brad in March/big-time hatred would have persisted.

It's my belief, should we make consecutive 2nd weekend runs...that chatter about Brad will dissipate. Or making a weekend higher than your seeding would suggest....3 seed to the F4 for example.


I've had my bitterness about Brad in some moments but I'm not trading the consecutive 20 win seasons/highly talented offensive teams for any update an coming coach. Brad can stay as long as he wants as far as I'm concerned
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houston was like a 5 point favorite in that game... yes they were somehow seeded lower
 
#722      
Battle89
NarrowJ said:
LOL okay, sure man...

Animated GIF


That solves it.. anyone who disagrees with you are all the same people lol
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I note you have edited your comment above to remove the reference to 'yourself', knew I had to grab that screenshot while it was hot. Sorry you can't bury this one in your hidden profile comments and gaslight everyone. What a fake. Got busted forgetting you had signed back in as your alt to like all the posts.
 
#723      
NarrowJ
Battle89 said:
I note you have edited your comment above to remove the reference to 'yourself', knew I had to grab that screenshot while it was hot. Sorry you can't bury this one in your hidden profile comments and gaslight everyone. What a fake. Got busted forgetting you had signed back in as your alt to like all the posts.
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I have mild to moderate dyslexia and if you haven't noticed most of my posts are edited several times or more because they often times do not make perfect sense the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time and sometimes have various mistakes even though I've read it back to myself 100x

But yes, lets make up some wild story though....

Always Sunny Reaction GIF


Its no secret from past history that you just do not like me... we have basically no interaction other than every once in a while you decide to berate me without provocation after a tough loss lol
 
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#724      
BrownTown
EmpoweredIllini said:
houston was like a 5 point favorite in that game... yes they were somehow seeded lower
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Look ....I get it, completely.

But when we start doing favorites off betting lines over tournament seeding. Gets tricky. All I'm saying a one line difference 'upset' is a lot different than 8-1.

Also, which sportsbook do we go off to decide if it's an upset or not? And at what point in the betting line is that decided?
 
#725      
EmpoweredIllini
BrownTown said:
Look ....I get it, completely.

But when we start doing favorites off betting lines over tournament seeding. Gets tricky. All I'm saying a one line difference 'upset' is a lot different than 8-1.

Also, which sportsbook do we go off to decide if it's an upset or not? And at what point in the betting line is that decided?
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betting lines never vary much from book to book, maybe 1 point or its like -110 on one book and -115 on another

anyway was just pointing it out, doesnt change my opinion much one way or another

editing to add i've been accused of stunt double for narrowj? lol
 
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