NBA Draft

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#576      
FloridaMan
the juiceman cometh said:
What exactly is it that current NBA players don't do as well as their predecessors?

Every critique I've heard about the quality of the NBA product has had more to do with style of play (analytic driven play style and homogenization of said style) and superstars being less marketable than in the past, lack of marketable dynasties and rivalries. I haven't heard anyone seriously argue that NBA players now are worse at basketball than NBA players of the past and I think all data and also my own eyeballs actually say the opposite.
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I don't know if I can really point to anything objectively TBH. I guess it probably just boils down to a subjective, generational thing just like the age old "best player ever" discussions. The style of play has changed so much that I just really don't watch it much at all. I'll watch a few Bulls games to catch Ayo, and now if the Wolves are on I may tune in to see if TJ plays.

I just think, overall, the players are every bit as athletically talented as they've ever been. But, when it comes to "traditional" (not sure if that is the right word) basketball skills and fundamentals - both offensively and defensively - I just don't see any Magic Johnsons, Larry Birds, or Michael Jordans. Who is the face of the league? Lebron? Steph? Meh....
 
#577      
illinitiger
I predict in 5 years Walter Clayton or Mark Sears will be considered steal of draft (in sears case... probably not drafted).
 
#578      
the juiceman cometh
FloridaMan said:
I just think, overall, the players are every bit as athletically talented as they've ever been. But, when it comes to "traditional" (not sure if that is the right word) basketball skills and fundamentals - both offensively and defensively - I just don't see any Magic Johnsons, Larry Birds, or Michael Jordans. Who is the face of the league? Lebron? Steph? Meh....
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See, this is just where I think you're talking about personal taste but calling it "ability." "Face of the league" as you put it seems to be more about personalities than basketball abilities. Even if you think MJ was better than LeBron you're still "meh"-ing a top-2 player all-time. And with Steph youre talking about easily the best shooter to ever play the game. Even if you don't like how the 3-pt heavy nature of the game, the skill is undeniable.

And neither of those guys are even the best player in the league right now. That might well be Jokic, who at least is in the conversation for the best big to ever play in the NBA. Or it could be SGA. Or Tatum. By the way, none of these guys spent an extended amount of time in college ball. If the entire premise of more time in college = better NBA player were true, why are all-star and all-NBA teams dominated by 1 and 2 year college players?
 
#580      
FloridaMan
the juiceman cometh said:
See, this is just where I think you're talking about personal taste but calling it "ability." "Face of the league" as you put it seems to be more about personalities than basketball abilities. Even if you think MJ was better than LeBron you're still "meh"-ing a top-2 player all-time. And with Steph youre talking about easily the best shooter to ever play the game. Even if you don't like how the 3-pt heavy nature of the game, the skill is undeniable.

And neither of those guys are even the best player in the league right now. That might well be Jokic, who at least is in the conversation for the best big to ever play in the NBA. Or it could be SGA. Or Tatum. By the way, none of these guys spent an extended amount of time in college ball. If the entire premise of more time in college = better NBA player were true, why are all-star and all-NBA teams dominated by 1 and 2 year college players?
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Don't completely disagree with you. But you are talking about specific skills in individual aspects of the game - shooting, offensive production mostly. Lebron in the top two and Steph best shooter, arguably. I would disagree that any of the players you named should be named in the top 5 for ALL AROUND offensive + defensive + team basketball play. Reluctantly (for me at least) Lebron probably. All are great individual players with fantastic isolated skills. But to say any of the others beyond Lebron have the all around games of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Wilt????? I don't know about that, man. I don't see it, but to each his own.

And you're last two sentences kind of lend support to my point. All around play, maybe you are correct it is the current style of play for me, is not as enjoyable for me to watch.
 
#581      
blackdog
FloridaMan said:
Don't completely disagree with you. But you are talking about specific skills in individual aspects of the game - shooting, offensive production mostly. Lebron in the top two and Steph best shooter, arguably. I would disagree that any of the players you named should be named in the top 5 for ALL AROUND offensive + defensive + team basketball play. Reluctantly (for me at least) Lebron probably. All are great individual players with fantastic isolated skills. But to say any of the others beyond Lebron have the all around games of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Wilt????? I don't know about that, man. I don't see it, but to each his own.

And you're last two sentences kind of lend support to my point. All around play, maybe you are correct it is the current style of play for me, is not as enjoyable for me to watch.
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The argument that players are less skilled looses a lot of value when you say you don't watch very much. The players are every bit as skilled and athletic if not more than they were. Obviously Offenses have evolved to be more and more efficient but the league has also gotten to a point where the even average player is still really hard to stop.

What a lot of people struggle with is the 3 point shooting and the gather step. Those two things have completely changed the style of play across the league and have really opened up a lot of creativity for players. Sometimes it looks really funky from a basketball traditionist viewpoint but it really has helped the game evolve a lot.
 
#582      
the juiceman cometh
FloridaMan said:
Don't completely disagree with you. But you are talking about specific skills in individual aspects of the game - shooting, offensive production mostly. Lebron in the top two and Steph best shooter, arguably. I would disagree that any of the players you named should be named in the top 5 for ALL AROUND offensive + defensive + team basketball play.
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For one, why is this even the metric? Do you mean top-5 all time? So basically, if there isn't a top-5 all-time player in the league in a given era, the overall quality of basketball is worse? This discussion was about whether NBA quality had gotten worse due to players like KJ and Riley leaving college early, but now we're just debating whether the 0.01% is better or worse than it was before? How did we get here?

FloridaMan said:
Reluctantly (for me at least) Lebron probably. All are great individual players with fantastic isolated skills. But to say any of the others beyond Lebron have the all around games of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Bird, Wilt????? I don't know about that, man. I don't see it, but to each his own.

And you're last two sentences kind of lend support to my point. All around play, maybe you are correct it is the current style of play for me, is not as enjoyable for me to watch.
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Wasn't your whole thing that the NBA is now bad because players don't develop longer in college? Interesting to include a straight-from-high-school guy in this list.
 
#583      
FloridaMan
the juiceman cometh said:
For one, why is this even the metric? Do you mean top-5 all time? So basically, if there isn't a top-5 all-time player in the league in a given era, the overall quality of basketball is worse? This discussion was about whether NBA quality had gotten worse due to players like KJ and Riley leaving college early, but now we're just debating whether the 0.01% is better or worse than it was before? How did we get here?



Wasn't your whole thing that the NBA is now bad because players don't develop longer in college? Interesting to include a straight-from-high-school guy in this list.
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The one out of six exception doesn't completely discredit the general opinion, lol. It took a few years for Kobe to grow into what he ultimately became, whereas the others hit the league and quickly established themselves as the best of the best. And when did I say the NBA is now bad? I said it was just not as enjoyable for me to watch, and posited that many others may share the same opinion. Not necessarily bad, just way different. Maybe your point about it boiling down to style of play for me is basically the main thing. I'm more of a traditionalist I guess. I grew up watching offenses based more on ball movement and inside scoring vs the three point shot, and defense was more of a priority than it seems it is now. Basically, the way it was when I was playing the game (albeit at a very much lower level). Way less flopping, etc, etc. Also, a world where there is no room for a Kofi in the league boggles my mind. Anyway, interesting discussion, for me at least. Sorry to hijack the thread.
 
#584      
nyc_illini
grue2 said:
I think Podz has already passed his peak in playing time. I expect he will drop down to a rotational piece (5-10mpg) within 2 years.

Why? Podz is in pretty much his idea situation at GS and he isn't getting the job done. [Not for lack of effort.] He is a (the) major limitation on GS right now. The offense dies when he is the lead guard. He can't shoot if there is even a mediocre defender on him. He is a below average perimeter defender. Other than salary Klay was better pretty much all around, even after losing the step with age. I'd like to see GS trade Podz while they can still get some value.
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this is so wrong i dont know where to start.

Podz was only in his second year in the league. Was in his first ever playoff, playing injured. Already had two surgeries in the post season.
 
#585      
grue2
grue2 said:
I think Podz has already passed his peak in playing time. I expect he will drop down to a rotational piece (5-10mpg) within 2 years.

Why? Podz is in pretty much his idea situation at GS and he isn't getting the job done. [Not for lack of effort.] He is a (the) major limitation on GS right now. The offense dies when he is the lead guard. He can't shoot if there is even a mediocre defender on him. He is a below average perimeter defender. Other than salary Klay was better pretty much all around, even after losing the step with age. I'd like to see GS trade Podz while they can still get some value.
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nyc_illini said:
this is so wrong i dont know where to start.

Podz was only in his second year in the league. Was in his first ever playoff, playing injured. Already had two surgeries in the post season.
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Well, you could start with which item you disagree with and provide reasons. e.g.
Do you believe that GS isn't pretty near the ideal situation for Podz?
Do you believe that the offense flowed and scored well with Pods as the lead guard?
Do you believe that Podz was scoring effectively when guarded? (vs. making open shots due to ball movement)
Do you believe that Podz plays better defense than Klay?
Do you believe that Podz shoots better than Klay?

Or you could say "I think Podz is young and will get better" acknowledging the current limitations and expression your opinion that he will get better vs. my opinion that we have seen pretty much all there is to see now that teams know how to guard him. Either of these are just opinions and conjecture.
 
#588      
Mobi
We probably have seen most we need to see about Podz but I think he can get a little bit better such as shooting and decision making.
 
#592      
EmeraldCityIllini
7-11 now all seem like very solid fits for KJ to succeed early on. Or atleast get some significant run. I'm still partial to Portland - like what they're building there.
 
#593      
PepeSilvia
blackdog said:
What a lot of people struggle with is the 3 point shooting and the gather step. Those two things have completely changed the style of play across the league and have really opened up a lot of creativity for players. Sometimes it looks really funky from a basketball traditionist viewpoint but it really has helped the game evolve a lot.
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It's not that I struggle with the gather step it's just that it's not called correctly and they end up giving guys 4 steps. The gather step(as instituted by FIBA) is supposed to be the step they give you when you begin to gather the ball but it's often treated as NFL style possession when the ball is secured.

So it basically went from being called as 2 steps but guys really getting 3 to now being guys getting 4 steps.

That plus carrying the ball is just legal makes it incredibly hard to play defense especially when guys can throw their body into you and initiate contact and get free throws constantly.

The 3pt shooting isn't really hard to watch it's just bad basketball for the most part from a lot of teams playing offense like they have Steph Curry and Klay Thompson. There is just a blind trust in analytics that 3's are better than 2's but it seems like a lot of the teams don't care about shot quality(which makes a huge impact on the EV of a 3). It's just bad basketball to take a 30 contested 3 with 20 seconds on the shot clock when you could get that same look at anytime like with 4 seconds left on the shot clock or so on.
 
#594      
B-ILL
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Latest ESPN mock draft. Let's will this into existence!
 
#595      
NarrowJ
B-ILL said:
View attachment 42720

Latest ESPN mock draft. Let's will this into existence!
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Giddey is a restricted free agent, so if the Bulls decide to bring him back I'd feel there is somewhat of a redundancy there... they seem like fairly similar players (that's not always a bad thing, though)
 
#596      
RockfordIllini
One thing that doesn’t make sense to me is the projections having Richardson ahead of Will.

I will give you Richardson had a better year but he measured at 6’ and doesn’t have great quickness or athleticism, and he relies on jerky jerky motions to get his shots up. Will actually has a similar playing style but is 6’8. Will also showed great ability to cut off the ball and pretty good playmaking such that he doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective. I just see Will having a much higher ceiling overall.
 
#597      
IlliniFan42
RockfordIllini said:
One thing that doesn’t make sense to me is the projections having Richardson ahead of Will.

I will give you Richardson had a better year but he measured at 6’ and doesn’t have great quickness or athleticism, and he relies on jerky jerky motions to get his shots up. Will actually has a similar playing style but is 6’8. Will also showed great ability to cut off the ball and pretty good playmaking such that he doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective. I just see Will having a much higher ceiling overall.
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Most of the league must agree with you because Will got a second-wave invite and Jase didn't get any invite at all.
 
#598      
Illinilosch
B-ILL said:
View attachment 42720

Latest ESPN mock draft. Let's will this into existence!
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Me personally, I'd rather CHI take a big in this draft since they badly need one. Perhaps like Derek Queen if he's still available. But if KJ is taken then I'd be thrilled.

Not sure the Bulls really need another guard, but it would be awesome to track KJ's early pro career in a Bulls uniform. Would just give me another reason to watch the Bulls besides just Ayo. Because after him, the team and the overall organization is pretty awful.
 
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