New NIT competitor

#26      

Illini2010-11

Sugar Grove
I'm much too lazy to find the gif..... but.... How about NOoooooooooooo!
I just really dislike this new tournament. There have been many discussions floating around about adding to the NCAA Tournament. Most noting that there would be an expansion of 4 or 8 teams.

I am not the biggest fan of tournament expansion, but it is coming at some point.

Disappointed Last Man Standing GIF by Laff
 
#27      
I just really dislike this new tournament. There have been many discussions floating around about adding to the NCAA Tournament. Most noting that there would be an expansion of 4 or 8 teams.

I am not the biggest fan of tournament expansion, but it is coming at some point.

Disappointed Last Man Standing GIF by Laff
Do we really want to trend toward 25% of Div1 teams being in the NCAA tournament???? That's where this is headed. I've never been a Participation Ribbon kinda guy..... But making the NCAA tournament field SHOULD be something special, a top 15-20% field.... I do see the number of teams on a yearly basis joining D1 increasing.... not sure what the criteria is.... but lately it almost seems that if you SAY you are D1, then you are in !!!
 
#28      
Do we really want to trend toward 25% of Div1 teams being in the NCAA tournament???? That's where this is headed. I've never been a Participation Ribbon kinda guy..... But making the NCAA tournament field SHOULD be something special, a top 15-20% field.... I do see the number of teams on a yearly basis joining D1 increasing.... not sure what the criteria is.... but lately it almost seems that if you SAY you are D1, then you are in !!!
True but how many double digit teams make a run in the tournament? The talent for basketball is spread around that almost anyone can win on any night

The NCAA tournament doesn’t decide who the best team is it determines the national championship. If it wanted to decide the best team it wouldn’t be single elimination
 
#29      

Illini2010-11

Sugar Grove
Do we really want to trend toward 25% of Div1 teams being in the NCAA tournament???? That's where this is headed. I've never been a Participation Ribbon kinda guy..... But making the NCAA tournament field SHOULD be something special, a top 15-20% field.... I do see the number of teams on a yearly basis joining D1 increasing.... not sure what the criteria is.... but lately it almost seems that if you SAY you are D1, then you are in !!!
None of what you are saying is based in fact, especially the first and last sentence. The number of fielded teams has only increased by 4 teams in the last 40 years (no reason to think we are really going to expand the field to over 100). Currently 19% or so teams make the tourney. Adding 8 teams (which would be on the high end), given the numerous new teams in D1 over next couple years, you are barely over your 20% threshold. I believe the likely change is 4 more teams added this next round of changes, meaning 72 total teams (2 play in games in each region). This would still be inside your threshold of acceptability.
 
#30      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
I am not the biggest fan of tournament expansion, but it is coming at some point.
This is the exact tone every article about this concept takes and it drives me insane.

Tournament expansion is a horrifically bad idea, everyone knows it, but this lobotomized learned helplessness about the need to always maximize the short-term TV contract for every sports property has fans acting like it's somehow savvy business to degrade and destroy the reasons we love these competitions in the first place.

College football has destroyed itself.

If college basketball turns the NCAA tournament into something not easily captured in an 8.5-11 sheet of office pool paper, they will have destroyed college basketball too.
 
#31      

Mr. Tibbs

southeast DuPage
so you are okay with it at a 8 pt font, but you draw the line at 7pt being too small? :unsure::)
 
#32      

Illini2010-11

Sugar Grove
This is the exact tone every article about this concept takes and it drives me insane.

Tournament expansion is a horrifically bad idea, everyone knows it, but this lobotomized learned helplessness about the need to always maximize the short-term TV contract for every sports property has fans acting like it's somehow savvy business to degrade and destroy the reasons we love these competitions in the first place.

College football has destroyed itself.

If college basketball turns the NCAA tournament into something not easily captured in an 8.5-11 sheet of office pool paper, they will have destroyed college basketball too.
Bruce Banner Hulk GIF by Harborne Web Design Ltd


Because adding 4 teams to the tourney is going to completely ruin it? An expansion of an entirely new round (100+ teams), I would agree with you.

Not sure why tones of realism drives you insane, given you are the board contrarian.
 
#33      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Because adding 4 teams to the tourney is going to completely ruin it?
4 more just kinda seems pointless.

The First Four currently is basically just an annoyance in bracket terms, it's not a megabucks TV property.

A couple more play-in games doesn't move the needle on any axis, why bother?

The principle that the powers that be need to get through their skulls is that the structure of the competition that the NCAA and CBS hit on the mid-80's is the selling point, it is more valuable than the sport of college basketball itself.

There's no rearranging of the parts of college basketball that creates something that can drive more interest, because the interest isn't in those parts in the first place. Brackets and the first weekend and small school upsets are the reason there is a mass TV audience for this obscure minor league competition.

There is no compromise with those that don't understand that.
 
#34      

Illini2010-11

Sugar Grove
4 more just kinda seems pointless.

The First Four currently is basically just an annoyance in bracket terms, it's not a megabucks TV property.

A couple more play-in games doesn't move the needle on any axis, why bother?

The principle that the powers that be need to get through their skulls is that the structure of the competition that the NCAA and CBS hit on the mid-80's is the selling point, it is more valuable than the sport of college basketball itself.

There's no rearranging of the parts of college basketball that creates something that can drive more interest, because the interest isn't in those parts in the first place. Brackets and the first weekend and small school upsets are the reason there is a mass TV audience for this obscure minor league competition.

There is no compromise with those that don't understand that.
I generally agree, but the issue began when they added the "65th" team (in 2001 tourney) after the Mountain West Conference was added in 1999. It made for a strange setup. The First Four made it worse. Now the bracket is unbalanced the way it is currently sequenced (two regions have 16 seed play ins, while other two regions have the "last 4" in game). I personally think play-in games with the 16 seed are stupid. The "last 4 in" games have generally been very good, and quite a few of these teams have made extended runs in the tournament.

For what it is worth, I wish that the tourney stayed with 64 teams, but that is a thing of the past. I think the NCAA can rearrange the way they work the First 4 without an expansion, but I doubt that will be the case given the smoke (and if four teams are ultimately added, it would not be the end of the world--at least it would balance out the brackets). I would actually propose keeping 68 teams and outright eliminating the 16 seed play in games and have the First 4 be games with the last 8 "at large" teams. It would balance out the brackets and avoid the 16 seed games that have no real allure to the general audience. With tv deals, etc., it will be impossible to go back to 64 teams.
 
#35      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
I generally agree, but the issue began when they added the "65th" team (in 2001 tourney) after the Mountain West Conference was added in 1999. It made for a strange setup. The First Four made it worse. Now the bracket is unbalanced the way it is currently sequenced (two regions have 16 seed play ins, while other two regions have the "last 4" in game). I personally think play-in games with the 16 seed are stupid. The "last 4 in" games have generally been very good, and quite a few of these teams have made extended runs in the tournament.

For what it is worth, I wish that the tourney stayed with 64 teams, but that is a thing of the past. I think the NCAA can rearrange the way they work the First 4 without an expansion, but I doubt that will be the case given the smoke (and if four teams are ultimately added, it would not be the end of the world--at least it would balance out the brackets). I would actually propose keeping 68 teams and outright eliminating the 16 seed play in games and have the First 4 be games with the last 8 "at large" teams. It would balance out the brackets and avoid the 16 seed games that have no real allure to the general audience. With tv deals, etc., it will be impossible to go back to 64 teams.
We seem to broadly agree here and you obviously understand the background and mechanics of it all. But here's the difference.

Your logic:
1. The suits are making noise about expanding the tournament to get more TV money, THEREFORE
2. Change is necessary
3. The question is the most prudent way to implement the short-term money grab

My logic:
1. The NCAA tournament is a valuable TV property because it has gigantic viewership and is one of very few mainstream mass audience sporting events
2. The tournament's breakthrough mass appeal is based on the unique charm and chaos of the bracket pool, the overlapping games of the first weekend, and the Cinderella upsets my small schools no one has heard of.
3. Any alteration of that dynamic is a NEGATIVE to the financial and commercial potential of the competition REGARDLESS of what it means for the next round of TV contracts.

You're asking which hedge fund is the right one to sell the local newspaper to. It doesn't matter, it's all the same death. You're talking about bathwater as the baby slips through the drain.

And that's the reason for my initial comment. The savvy internet commenter tone is to treat whatever the moneyed power brokers want as inevitable and do discourse around the "smartest" way to implement it. But in this case taking that position is totally missing the point, and it's particularly frustrating because everyone always prefaces it with "I don't want tournament expansion, but".

No one wanting it IS the story here. THAT'S the savvy thing to know. The power brokers are wrong, and the whole industry is going to lose their shirts over it.
 
Last edited:
#36      
None of what you are saying is based in fact, especially the first and last sentence. The number of fielded teams has only increased by 4 teams in the last 40 years (no reason to think we are really going to expand the field to over 100). Currently 19% or so teams make the tourney. Adding 8 teams (which would be on the high end), given the numerous new teams in D1 over next couple years, you are barely over your 20% threshold. I believe the likely change is 4 more teams added this next round of changes, meaning 72 total teams (2 play in games in each region). This would still be inside your threshold of acceptability.
I suspect the difference in thinking is "20% of what?" ~225 of the ~360 D1 schools are in conferences that will only ever get their auto-bid, and will always fill in seeds 13-16. Expanding the tournament will not add any teams from those leagues. If one looks only at the power conferences, they are already sending over 20% of their teams. The BIG just sent 35% in a down year and sends 55-65% in a good year.
 
#37      
I'm not a fan of expanding March Madness, but I don't see a problem with another postseason tournament when schools already reject the existing ones. There's a decent chance that because Fox is running it, it'll actually make the schools involved some money.
 
#38      
I'm not a fan of expanding March Madness, but I don't see a problem with another postseason tournament when schools already reject the existing ones. There's a decent chance that because Fox is running it, it'll actually make the schools involved some money.
The other side: We could let the students be students and not accept offers to "participation tournaments" that mostly just make the networks money.

I think the P5 teams declining the NIT are right to do so. Let the NIT be for the smaller conferences. Invite the regular season winners who lost their conference tournaments, and some at large bids from conferences who got at most 2 NCAA bids. (16 teams total)
 
#39      
The other side: We could let the students be students and not accept offers to "participation tournaments" that mostly just make the networks money.

I think the P5 teams declining the NIT are right to do so. Let the NIT be for the smaller conferences. Invite the regular season winners who lost their conference tournaments, and some at large bids from conferences who got at most 2 NCAA bids. (16 teams total)

This whole response doesn't make sense. A lot of student athletes are students in name only at this point. Sports is their chance to make some money, more national exposure means more opportunities to make money.

The NIT is for smaller conferences not by design, but because it is a financial wash to compete in it. If people want to see P5 schools compete in a consolation tournament, why shouldn't one exist that makes financial sense to participate in?
 
#40      
This whole response doesn't make sense. A lot of student athletes are students in name only at this point. Sports is their chance to make some money, more national exposure means more opportunities to make money.
I seriously doubt that the exposure from participating in the the second class tournament will make the students more money. Anyone who matters has already seen these players play a lot of games against mediocre competition already (the season). They are not going to learn anything significant by watching them play in the consolation tournament.

I'd also hope there are still real students like Goode. I'm not going to penalize the real student to help (or not) the fake student.

The NIT is for smaller conferences not by design, but because it is a financial wash to compete in it. If people want to see P5 schools compete in a consolation tournament, why shouldn't one exist that makes financial sense to participate in?
The NIT doesn't pay because:
1) It runs in parallel to the NCAA and people are already overloaded on (better) games
2) The teams in the NIT are not that good, so people are not that interested.

I expect both of these will still be true for the new tournament. The P5 teams may draw a bit larger audience, since each school likely has a larger dedicated fan base. I don't expect the earnings to be significant.
 
Last edited:
#41      
This is the exact tone every article about this concept takes and it drives me insane.

Tournament expansion is a horrifically bad idea, everyone knows it, but this lobotomized learned helplessness about the need to always maximize the short-term TV contract for every sports property has fans acting like it's somehow savvy business to degrade and destroy the reasons we love these competitions in the first place.

College football has destroyed itself.

If college basketball turns the NCAA tournament into something not easily captured in an 8.5-11 sheet of office pool paper, they will have destroyed college basketball too.
Agreed. If they change so much that they’re unrecognizable, will they still have the same mass appeal? Probably not.
My guess is that reality will set in in 5-10 years, and less $ to go around.
 
#42      
I never watch the NIT so I wouldn’t be interested in this. But I could be persuaded to watch if they change or experiment with some rules. Putting in a 4 point line might make these games exciting. It couldn’t extend to the corners but would be further out in the court.

Maybe move to a 24 sec shot clock instead of 30.
 
#43      
The NIT doesn't pay because:
1) It runs in parallel to the NCAA and people are already overloaded on (better) games
2) The teams in the NIT are not that good, so people are not that interested.
The NIT doesn't pay because it is part of a now $115M/year media deal with ESPN that also includes the Women's NCAA Tournament, WBIT, Interational coverage of the men's tournament, and a bunch of other stuff. There's no money to pay out to the entrants beyond the approx. $5k/game a school gets paid because of how bad a deal the NCAA negotiated. This new Fox tournament doesn't have that baggage; it was specifically designed to generate profit.