Northwestern 73, Illinois 60 Postgame

LvilleILL said:

In all the frustrations the biggest bright spot has been Dain-we have a really really good center on our hands in the future. Needs to improve fts obv, but he's going to be great here

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Especially considering he doesn't have a point guard that can get him the ball.

This whole thing of running the offense through Hawkins and Mayer outside the 3 point line just isn't working its time to scrap that whole experiment they aren't capable of doing it.

coryfor3 said:

When the losing starts, adjust your standards eh? Just move the goal posts?
This isn't a freshman problem. They're some of the best players right now.

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Just your expectations that because they because they beat Texas and UCLA, they won't lose to much lesser teams, and that they won't have ups and downs.

CoachHooleyHoo said:

His shot selection is horrendous no doubt, but I don't think telling him to shoot more is the move. They need to find a way to put him in better position to shoot in space. He cannot create his own shot to save his life.

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I believe the thought of him shooting more is when he gets the ball at the FT line or in the paint. There are plenty of examples recently but one tonight was he was literally 2-3 from the bucket in the middle of the lane and passed it out. Robbie Hummel said something to the effect, you're 6'10" and you get the ball there, don't kick it out. Take it to the hole.

pruman91 said:

We were up 43-38 with 12 minutes left...........that means we got out scored 35 -17 in that 12 minute span .......When was the last time we had 3 players foul out ???........................Deon T. said the foul called on RJ as buie fell down , the softest foul call in the history of the B$G......only contact I saw was buie push RJ with his arm as he fell down.....

The fall from grace by the Illini since the win over texas at M$G has to be the most puzzling thing I have witnessed in many many years....I have tried to forget the Groce years so maybe something as bad as this stretch of horrible play happened back then...........

The presser where MM went off on something wrong with the team has been the match that lit this dumpster fire ........As all my friends here know , I am such a optimist concerning the Illini programs but this last 3 weeks has me as down as I have been regarding Illini MBB in a long long time........

Something is going on with this team that I can't figure out as we have plenty of talent but no cohesive play.....no momentum.......no all out effort........
no balls to the wall , hair on fire kind of spark that can carry a team through a scoring drought or less than stellar defensive play.......

I will say this was also one of the worst reffed game this year ....and that's saying a lot without larry sh**head or d j bald head ref on the court.......

I don't really know what can be done to stop this slide......anyone ?? ....anyone ???

View attachment 22542


BU on the radio post game said....................

we made 6 more FG's than them
fouls with 5 seconds left on the shot clock
passive on drives to the bucket
sincere can't trash talk 2 feet from the ref
lack of discipline
shots took tonight that we don't practice
4 players for us foul out
young guys have to grow up
veterans also
it's got to be aboot us , not me.....team instead of me......
not tough enough yet



same old stuff........................gonna be a long night for me as i don't process this type of play by the Illini very well.......time for some medications to ease my pain.....this pain goes all the way to the bone..........I tried to read some of the game thread but had to stop.......I want to curl up in a fetal position and sleep but when I wake up the pain will still be there .....

0-3 in the B$G with wisky up next and they are 3-0.............

On to the ladies game tomorrow night @ 8 pm.............carry on Illini Nation , as hard as it will be after this putrid display of Illini BB.......peace out.....

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Harris' T was crushing to our momentum and TS's intentional foul hurt immensely also.

IlliniKat91 said:

This assumes TSJ, MM, and the freshmen give a damn what Ayo has to say. He doesn't mean anything to them in terms of a teammate or role model.

In fact, MM could just look at him and say, "I've won a natty. You never did." Hard to get buy in there

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Yeah, you are right. MM is probably making more $$ than Ayo is anyway.

ChiefGritty said:

Not to disagree, but I don't think there's any slowing down of the portal-ization of CBB and CFB, and so making that work well is going to be a critical part of any program.

Because let's be candid here. It's not that we might lose one of our promising freshmen this offseason. We will. It is statistically improbable that we wouldn't, that is just the way college basketball is now. And that's not even considering how awful the vibe is for this team in particular.

You re-recruit your own roster every season, and like with high school recruiting, you don't bat 1.000. No one does, no one can.

All of that said, to go from Kofi-Trent-DMW as a long-term leadership group to bringing in Mayer and Shannon from the outside to lead a young, inexperienced team was an unusually large culture transplant. The theory seemed to be that those guys coming from winning programs would bring some of that DNA to us. Hasn't happened. I agree with the general principle though, that we should be eager to have guys like Harris and Epps take more of those leadership reins in the coming years. But that does not mean we won't be back in the portal as well.

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No doubt. But a non-negotiable first step in “keeping promising freshmen” is “having promising freshmen”

Okay ... after a night to think on it and relax/calm down a bit, here are my more organized thoughts. I will start with the more obvious bad:

Bad
- We look more lost than I remember in my lifetime as a fan, given the talent on this team. Even with our infuriatingly underachieving Weber/Groce teams from 2010 to 2014 or whatever, I kept watching until the end knowing that we AT LEAST had the ability to jack up some threes and get back in any game, even if we would commit some dumb foul or defensive lapse in the final minute. With this team, I think every single fan watched the beginning of that Northwestern run and knew we were not just going to lose ... we were not seriously going to come back in any real way. Our guys just look like their game plan is to "hope to win" based off of the talent. It's not even that individual players are being "physically" lazy or whatever ... there is just absolutely no cohesion or mental togetherness.
- I doubt I am alone in this, but the absolute astonishment in the difference in play from the Texas win to everything after is just bewildering ... like, what? The scary thing is that I do not think the team or coaches understand it, either. You could phrase this is a silver lining (if we can pinpoint the problem, back to normal!), I guess, but it also means that our floor is effectively a total collapse.

Good
- We are not waiting on any cavalry ... this team is loaded with talent. And I do not need to rely on message board hype based on preseason practices, or high school recruiting rankings or even how some of these transfers played at their old schools. We have literally already proven in this very season that we can play with and beat the best teams in the nation. Whereas in a year like 2011 or 2013 we just had to realize that our roster might not be as talented as we all thought, that just simply is not the case here. This explanation makes our current struggles more frustrating, for sure, but it also DOES give a glimmer of hope that we can gel.
- Some of our freshmen are the ones playing the hardest and, ironically, the smartest. Not only might that bode well for the future, but it also gives me tepid optimism that guys like CoHawk and RJ and TSJ can be motivated by not being shown up by true freshmen on the most basic of things like effort and mental toughness. On that last note...
- This is NOT a case of tough freshmen coming in to "change the guard," and we have a bunch of upperclassmen who have never known any differently and don't have a "winning mentality." Hawkins and RJ were on a team that, whatever its faults, was INCREDIBLY tough. TSJ and Mayer came from squads that were undeniably tough. You can argue none of these players are tough themselves, but I argue that they all have it in them. Again, this is the silver lining AND the perplexing/depressing part of this current skid, but ... we just have to all get on the same page mentally.

Here is the upcoming schedule (current NET rankings):

vs. #54 Wisconsin (Q2)
at #87 Nebraska (Q2)
vs. #57 Michigan State (Q2)
at #237 Minnesota (Q3)
vs. #18 Indiana (Q1)
vs. #9 Ohio State (Q1)
at #54 Wisconsin (Q1)
vs. #87 Nebraska (Q3)
at #66 Iowa (Q1)
vs. #237 Minnesota (Q4)
vs. #14 Rutgers (Q1)
at #69 Penn State (Q1)
at #18 Indiana (Q1)
vs. #58 Northwestern (Q2)
at #9 Ohio State (Q1)
vs. #77 Michigan (Q3)
at #7 Purdue (Q1)

17 games left. 9 Quad 1 games. 4 Quad 2 games. Play to our talent level, and we'll be fine ... that's my best try at optimism!

illinitiger said:

Anyone know what magic set Mayer was referring to that they have been struggling to get into?

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Spread

BashCtIllini said:

These are not kids. These guys are over 18, many over 20, and many are already in the top 1% of earners in the world.

The don't be mean to the kids line went straight out the window as soon as they started accepting 10s and 100s of thousands of dollars. They are paid employees and right now many of them deserve to be fired.

I said very early in the season, I'd have this team working on dribbling drills in practice. Seemingly every time someone drove, they'd get the ball stripped. When we looked at a roster with Shannon, Mayer, Melendez, Hawkins we never said, man this team is going to make it rain and just kill teams from deep. We said, wow this is great length, should be killer on defense, and they should be able to get to the hoop. Driving to the hoop draws fouls and creates kickout opportunities for guys like Goode.

We're not driving, at all. And on the rare times we do, we're getting stripped. This offense is horrendous. With the length, athleticism, and versatility of our players, we should be giving defense fits. We should be setting back screens to get guys to the rim. Have we had a single alley oop this season? This team looks so much better when they're moving the ball. Sadly it doesn't happen often.

Underwood simply isn't earning his money this season. The reality is, we beat UCLA and Texas in large part because Shannon was on fire against UCLA and Mayer was on fire against Texas. If we didn't win those games and we're sitting here at 7-7, the pitchforks would really be out. The offense is horrible, the defense is worse, they can't make a FT, 3 pt shooting is embarassing, the effort is consistently lacking, and there is no leader. There is not a lot to hang our hats on. This is the team Underwood put together. The buck stops with him.

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I didn’t add the /s but I did expound on it in a later response.

you are 200% spot on as far as I am concerned FWIW

The “leaders” are all 20, 21, 22 and 23

mattcoldagelli said:

Living by the portal is high-risk/high-reward. I think we all kind of knew that going in (and have seen both outcomes already and it's not even the middle of January).

Taking solace in the fact that building block/multi-year guys seem to be overperforming and have been the bright spots.

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If we can keep the home grown talent on board. Maybe BU needs to stop MFing them

Goillinikobd said:

If we can keep the home grown talent on board. Maybe BU needs to stop MFing them

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I like how coaches have yelled at players for a century and now suddenly we all think it's the reason we are struggling.

DJM said:

Harris' T was crushing to our momentum and TS's intentional foul hurt immensely also.

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What BU left out is that they made 26, yes 26 more points on FTs than we did. You cannot blame the referees for that large of a gap.

That has to be some kind of a record deficit.

sacraig said:

I like how coaches have yelled at players for a century and now suddenly we all think it's the reason we are struggling.

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I respect you as one of the Yodas of this Board, resoect that is well earned, but I beg to differ.

I’ve watched Illini basketball for almost half of that century, going back to Otho Tucker, and I have never seen such a public display of MF ing from an Illini head coach. If you have, please name them.

I notice the "they might be better off after Kofi" comments have completely vanished

LvilleILL said:

In all the frustrations the biggest bright spot has been Dain-we have a really really good center on our hands in the future. Needs to improve fts obv, but he's going to be great here

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Couldn't agree more. Dain is going to be a bonafide stud. Our front court could be special with Dain, Hansberry and Morez in a couple years.

Goillinikobd said:

I respect you as one of the Yodas of this Board, resoect that is well earned, but I beg to differ.

I’ve watched Illini basketball for almost half of that century, going back to Otho Tucker, and I have never seen such a public display of MF ing from an Illini head coach. If you have, please name them.

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I mean is it any worse then Weber saying "Dee couldn't shoot left handed lay ups" , throwing Mccamey under the bus constantly, saying he wish he had players like Hummel

I think Weber gets more hate then he deserves but come on now

illiniswish09 said:

Spread

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That’s what I thought. And, you know what.
That makes absolutely %1000…no sense.

You know what triggers that offense? (It’s not a big secret.)A flippin’plain-old pass to the wing that’s it. And if they deny the pass, the guard dribbles the ball to the wing…the aptly named “dribble entry.” And presto, you’re into the offense…and the off guard is supposed to make a beeline cut to the basket, this starts the offense as soon as the ball makes it to the wing…that’s it.

There’s nothing to it. It’s a simple wing pass that initiates just about every: youth, junior high school, high school, junior college, and college offense in America.

So ask yourself is it: can’t or won’t?

Unless they have just completely forgot how to play basketball over night?
We don’t have the discipline or presence of mind to run a numbered break? It takes us a half of basketball or longer to set up our press? We can’t get into an offense now because a wing pass/dribble entry is just too hard?

These guys are completely grasping at straws in these pressers. It’s ridiculous.

Goillinikobd said:

I respect you as one of the Yodas of this Board, resoect that is well earned, but I beg to differ.

I’ve watched Illini basketball for almost half of that century, going back to Otho Tucker, and I have never seen such a public display of MF ing from an Illini head coach. If you have, please name them.

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I was never a division one athlete (is there like a division 21??) so I have no frame of reference. I suspect these guys have spent at least some portion of their athletic careers being verbally challenged by coaches in harsh ways. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Bill Self, Coach K, Bobby Knight all tested/test blood pressure limits during games. The big difference is, they have those pesky national championship banners to go with them.

jjv0004 said:

Is it possible that they just aren't that good? All I kept reading on these boards all summer and fall was how many NBA guys this team had. Shannon, Mayer, Hawkins, Melendez, Skyy was done and done, etc. All laughable. These guys are not NBA players. And Underwood is highly overrated as a coach. Sorry, I know that is unpopular and I will get smoked for it. He makes $3.5 million a year for this garbage. He got severely outcoached in the big dance 2 years ago against Loyola and almost lost in the 1st round last year against a 14th seed. What is the actual offensive philosophy for his teams? So hard to watch this team.

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If the coach is accountable for results, that cuts both ways. He's won back*-to-back B1G titles and that wasn't by accident.

I don't get why people think that what we're seeing on the court is what he's drawn up. The team is just flatly refusing to run the offense for most of the game, no matter what he calls. He went back to the spread and switched up the defensive scheme, which I assume is at least in part an attempt to re-engage the team and get them to just run something, anything. But they're still not doing it. Last night there was a possession where Hawkins had the ball at the top of the key and was supposed to trigger the first motion on the spread, but the two guys on the wing just stared at him and didn't do anything until he yelled at them, at which point one guy jogged to the wrong spot and the second cutter arrived before the first. This is the same offense we've seen off and on since Underwood has gotten here, and while I don't know much about it I know it shouldn't look like that because I've seen us execute it before.

We looked decent in stretches last night because we were engaged. We've looked dominant on defense at time this year against some very good teams because we were engaged. The buck stops with Underwood on all of it, but what we're seeing is not what he's asking his team to do.

The only thing that brings me confidence about this team is that this is a fixable problem. Last year's team had a bunch of stuff that couldn't be fixed -- we had one guy who absolutely couldn't play offense, one guy who absolutely couldn't play defense, one guy who couldn't tell you how many fingers you were holding up, one guy who was held together by athletic tape, and a few underclassmen who hadn't figured anything out yet. We won a title because of Kofi, and some luck, and a lot of hard work. This year's team does have talent, because we've seen it. We've knocked off two top-ten teams! That's not a mistake, it's what happens when a talented team buys in. Hell, last night was an awful defensive performance against an awful offensive team, but you still saw them be able to get stops based on their athleticism and length alone. I hate a lot of the blocks they get because they come off of defensive breakdowns, but at least we're getting them. You can't coach size or athletic ability, or even talent to some extent, and we've got all that.

Maybe Underwood will find the right thing to say, and maybe these guys will just get tired of losing. Either way, there's no fix to this team that doesn't involve a complete change in how the players are approaching the game.

The Sprouting Divot said:

I bought tickets for this game back when they went on sale - this was my seven year old's first Illinois basketball game, and I assumed that he'd have a fun time watching a great team beat up on a mediocre/bad team. Boy, was I ever wrong.

At least he now understands what it is to be an Illinois fan.

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It's like when you let your kids crawl around on the dirty floor to expose their little immune systems to all the germs when they are toddlers.

Get that Illini sports immune system ready.

WyattEarp said:

So ask yourself is it: can’t or won’t?

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Won't.

Someone made the comment that they can't square what Mayer is saying in his interviews with what he's doing on the court. All I can say is that there are a lot of people in this world who make it very far by being able to say the right things in public even if they're not following through on any of it. I'm not interested in listening to anything these guys are saying until I see something different on the court.

dbeverly26 said:

If the coach is accountable for results, that cuts both ways. He's won back*-to-back B1G titles and that wasn't by accident.

I don't get why people think that what we're seeing on the court is what he's drawn up. The team is just flatly refusing to run the offense for most of the game, no matter what he calls. He went back to the spread and switched up the defensive scheme, which I assume is at least in part an attempt to re-engage the team and get them to just run something, anything. But they're still not doing it. Last night there was a possession where Hawkins had the ball at the top of the key and was supposed to trigger the first motion on the spread, but the two guys on the wing just stared at him and didn't do anything until he yelled at them, at which point one guy jogged to the wrong spot and the second cutter arrived before the first. This is the same offense we've seen off and on since Underwood has gotten here, and while I don't know much about it I know it shouldn't look like that because I've seen us execute it before.

We looked decent in stretches last night because we were engaged. We've looked dominant on defense at time this year against some very good teams because we were engaged. The buck stops with Underwood on all of it, but what we're seeing is not what he's asking his team to do.

The only thing that brings me confidence about this team is that this is a fixable problem. Last year's team had a bunch of stuff that couldn't be fixed -- we had one guy who absolutely couldn't play offense, one guy who absolutely couldn't play defense, one guy who couldn't tell you how many fingers you were holding up, one guy who was held together by athletic tape, and a few underclassmen who hadn't figured anything out yet. We won a title because of Kofi, and some luck, and a lot of hard work. This year's team does have talent, because we've seen it. We've knocked off two top-ten teams! That's not a mistake, it's what happens when a talented team buys in. Hell, last night was an awful defensive performance against an awful offensive team, but you still saw them be able to get stops based on their athleticism and length alone. I hate a lot of the blocks they get because they come off of defensive breakdowns, but at least we're getting them. You can't coach size or athletic ability, or even talent to some extent, and we've got all that.

Maybe Underwood will find the right thing to say, and maybe these guys will just get tired of losing. Either way, there's no fix to this team that doesn't involve a complete change in how the players are approaching the game.

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This x 1000

pvaughn8 said:

Maybe if we can scrounge together some extra NIL money they will start playing better

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It's funny that it seems now it's up to "us" to keep coming up with NIL cash year after year in order that we can attract the better players. So if we all don't pony up we have no one to blame but ourselves apparently. Actually not funny at all.

LvilleILL said:

In all the frustrations the biggest bright spot has been Dain-we have a really really good center on our hands in the future. Needs to improve fts obv, but he's going to be great here

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You know who was good at getting the ball into the post? Jake Grandison. We used to run a set with Trent, Jake, Kofi in which Trent would get a ball screen, Kofi kinda rolls but really he’s just setting up to pin his guy in the lane, Trent can shoot off the screen OR has Jake flashing to top of the key (Jake’s defender maybe sags a little to help with the “roll”.) Trent hits Jake, Jake can shoot it or has Kofi posted in the middle of the lane. We were really missing this action against Houston. Do we not have the personnel for this?? Epps, Mayer, Dain should be able to run this set. For reference, you can see it developing in this photo. We destroyed both Wisconsin and Michigan State with this (and various iterations of this).