Pregame: Illinois at Northwestern, Tuesday, February 7th, 7:00pm CT, BTN

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#51      
Blaming players is simply ridiculous!

Who is responsible for recruiting the players in our program (developing the roster)? Groce

Who is responsible for teaching those players how to play the game in the manner the coaching staff wants them to play (developing the players)? Groce

Who is responsible for which players are on the court at any point during the game (sit them if they are not doing the job, you have the power)? Groce


Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.
 
#52      
Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.

It's really irrelevant who is at fault. The coach is paid millions of dollars and ultimately is accountable.
 
#53      
Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.

The one thing the players are doing is trying hard. These kids aren't quitting the way Weber's kids did in 2012. They're just totally tactically over-matched by everybody else in the league, even teams with less talent and experience.

But the players don't get off easy. The next coach is going to hold them accountable for the mistakes they're making now, whether they know they're mistakes or not. And the cream will rise.
 
#54      
Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.

If your kid is bad at math because the teacher is teaching him that 2+3=7, then it is the teacher's fault.

Also, if your 8th grader is bad at algebra because her teacher is trying to teach advanced calculus in algebra class, it's the teacher's fault.
 
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#55      
Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.

It is not the same logic at all. The only close parallel is if your kid isn't doing well it is YOUR fault, not the teacher's fault. And even then, unlike you with your kids, a coach has the option to choose which kids he/she brings in to the program. Like you, the coach also has the ability to mold and train them. Unfortunately, the latter is what is not happening to a satisfactory level.
 
#56      
Yeah, Groce is responsible for all of that I agree. But my goodness, the players don't have any responsibility, or blame for not performing, or under-performing? I know a lot of people feel the same way you do. I guess it's the same logic as if my kid isn't doing well in school, it's the teacher's fault. A lot of parents feel that way also. Oh well, I guess that's our society today.

Do the players share in the blame? Absolutely. But Groce has had five years to change the trajectory of the program. We're losing over half of our minutes and almost 60% of our scoring to graduation. This is his program now and we're 13th in the Big Ten. Its time for a change.

To tweak your analogy, this is a situation where the schools math scores consistently lag behind state averages, despite performance in other curriculum that are above average. Clearly something is off with the teachers methodology and perhaps its time to bring in a new math teacher.
 
#57      
You tell a kid not to shoot from certain spots based on whether you believe they can hit it or not. If I changed the name from Lucas to Tate in that sentence, you wouldn't argue it at all, so let's not get on Groce immediately if that is the case. It's entirely normal for guys to have a leash on where they shoot from/how often. We, quite simply, have yet to see evidence that TJL is a shooter. We also don't have evidence to say he's NOT a shooter. But the coaching staff in this case certainly does, which is why I am noting that as a possibility. If he's only hitting 35% from 3 in practice, that'd be entirely reasonable to tell him not to.

Based on some of the shots he has passed on, I can tell you he doesn't have, or feel like he has, the green light that JCL does, that's for sure.

His shooting mechanics really have quite a few flaws (they were evident in his high school tape as well, where he really seemed to like to lean back on shots to create separation), so it's really not unfathomable.

Just to be clear, none of that is meant to say he's not a good player, but I think we need to work a little harder to get him shots where he is comfortable. I'm a broken record on it, but our screening rarely creates separation between the ball handler and his man, but if we could fix that and get him to the FT line/midrange more consistently, that would help him/us a lot. Gets him more in his comfort zone as a scorer for that floater he has shown he likes, adding a FT line jumper off of the dribble would open a lot, and we already know about his vision. Still a bright future, but needs some development as a shooter, imo.

I agree that most coaches will put restrictions on players, I just don't think Groce is one of those. He has a history of allowing his players to play freely. That is why I think it is self imposed.
 
#58      
I think we win this game, Northwestern is okay but that's it. Very winnable if we do anything right. There hasn't been 1 game in the last 40 years against Northwestern that I thought we would lose and I think this is a close game even though we have been awful
 
#59      
I think we win this game, Northwestern is okay but that's it. Very winnable if we do anything right. There hasn't been 1 game in the last 40 years against Northwestern that I thought we would lose and I think this is a close game even though we have been awful

Lol, I know, I feel like I'm only going to believe Northwestern actually being a better basketball team when I see it.

If Scottie Lindsey is out, we certainly have the opportunity to win this.
 
#60      
I agree that most coaches will put restrictions on players, I just don't think Groce is one of those. He has a history of allowing his players to play freely. That is why I think it is self imposed.

Again, this is based on the assumption that TJL is a shooter. If he's not a shooter, then that restriction would be expected/understood (nobody questions why Tate isn't shooting), whereas if he is a shooter, then we would be justifiably frustrated with him passing up shots. But there's no evidence yet that he is (or isn't) a shooter, so we can settle for :confused:
 
#61      
You tell a kid not to shoot from certain spots based on whether you believe they can hit it or not. If I changed the name from Lucas to Tate in that sentence, you wouldn't argue it at all, so let's not get on Groce immediately if that is the case. It's entirely normal for guys to have a leash on where they shoot from/how often. We, quite simply, have yet to see evidence that TJL is a shooter. We also don't have evidence to say he's NOT a shooter. But the coaching staff in this case certainly does, which is why I am noting that as a possibility. If he's only hitting 35% from 3 in practice, that'd be entirely reasonable to tell him not to.

Based on some of the shots he has passed on, I can tell you he doesn't have, or feel like he has, the green light that JCL does, that's for sure.

His shooting mechanics really have quite a few flaws (they were evident in his high school tape as well, where he really seemed to like to lean back on shots to create separation), so it's really not unfathomable.

Just to be clear, none of that is meant to say he's not a good player, but I think we need to work a little harder to get him shots where he is comfortable. I'm a broken record on it, but our screening rarely creates separation between the ball handler and his man, but if we could fix that and get him to the FT line/midrange more consistently, that would help him/us a lot. Gets him more in his comfort zone as a scorer for that floater he has shown he likes, adding a FT line jumper off of the dribble would open a lot, and we already know about his vision. Still a bright future, but needs some development as a shooter, imo.

Certain spots, yes, it is OK to have a kid not shoot. But I've seen him pass up wide open looks from all over the court. Furthermore, I have actually argued in years past that Tate needed to shoot more even if he would miss it. You just have to get lucky and hit one early and it can have a big impact on the game.

But, my main comment on Groce would be if he were making a blanket statement to not shoot. Early in the clock, fine. From 3, fine. Other specific situations, fine.
 
#62      
I think we win this game, Northwestern is okay but that's it. Very winnable if we do anything right. There hasn't been 1 game in the last 40 years against Northwestern that I thought we would lose and I think this is a close game even though we have been awful

I thought that until Minnesota happened.
 
#63      
I am so tired of the college basketball season not being any fun. No matter what is going on, it just isn't fun when we suck. And we suck.

What has made it a little more tolerable for me at least is seeing Northwestern having success. This state has too much basketball talent to not see at least 1 school make the NCAA tournament. We'll see how ISU does, but since I don't have any dislike or hatred for any of the state schools, I wish them the best of luck and look forward to seeing an Illinois school represented in the tournament for once.
 
#64      
What has made it a little more tolerable for me at least is seeing Northwestern having success. This state has too much basketball talent to not see at least 1 school make the NCAA tournament. We'll see how ISU does, but since I don't have any dislike or hatred for any of the state schools, I wish them the best of luck and look forward to seeing an Illinois school represented in the tournament for once.

I've got plenty of love for NU (I went to grad school there), but because Illinois is my big time number one (grew up in Urbana) NU's success while we suck just makes it worse (for me). They are gonna beat the crap out of us. That just isn't right. I miss Lou Henson.
 
#65      
I'm getting a root canal tomorrow afternoon, hopefully my mouth will be as numb as my feelings toward the result of this game
 
#66      
I've got plenty of love for NU (I went to grad school there), but because Illinois is my big time number one (grew up in Urbana) NU's success while we suck just makes it worse (for me). They are gonna beat the crap out of us. That just isn't right. I miss Lou Henson.

I'm not old enough to have seen Lou coach but I miss the late 90s-2006 Illini. Those were fun times and what got me to love college basketball. Man, I'd even take anything to get McCamey/Tisdale/Mike Davis back. They played way better basketball than what we see these days.
 
#68      
I have to confess that I never saw a basketball game while I was on campus. I wasn't big enough roundball fan to camp out for a week to get tickets. Yeah, back in the late '60s, they had rules on staying line, how many people who had to rotate through on a shift for how many tickets. And you had to have people there 24 hours a day until tickets went on sale. Then everybody had to come in and buy their own.

They sold out the student section, as I remember.

I guess it isn't like that anymore.

:(
 
#70      
The one thing the players are doing is trying hard. These kids aren't quitting the way Weber's kids did in 2012. They're just totally tactically over-matched by everybody else in the league, even teams with less talent and experience.

But the players don't get off easy. The next coach is going to hold them accountable for the mistakes they're making now, whether they know they're mistakes or not. And the cream will rise.

Agree. I think Groce does a pretty good job with attitude and conditioning. I'll add in technical skill development to tactical knowledge on the down side. Maybe it is there, but I don't see it.
 
#72      
Groce previews Northwestern

Groce: Our focus right now is to get better offensively. I thought our defense was good enough last week.

Groce: Try to take your emotion out of it. Have to work on our areas to improve. Comes down to execution & making shots.

Groce: In terms of Northwestern, they're playing really good basketball. Play really well at home. Good start in B1G play.

Groce on NW: They defend well. Really impressed with that. They rebound it.

Groce: They've got good size. Done a good job defensively around the rim.

Groce: We know it's going to take a great effort from our guys. We're looking forward to taking the trip today.

Groce: Had one of our best practices of the year today. How loud it was. And the energy level of our guys.

Groce: The challenge is to continue to live in the present. Want guys to stay in the moment. Not look back or forward.

https://twitter.com/DPiperScout

[youtube]fIW1_nsovhs[/youtube]
 
#74      
Yes it's Northwesern -6 not Illinois. If ILL was favored by 6 I would already be on my way to Vegas and be the first in line at the sportsbook. NW should easily win by double digits.
 
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