Pregame: Illinois at UCLA, Saturday, February 21st, 7:00pm CT, FOX

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#51      
ChiefGritty
EmeraldCityIllini said:
I never quite understood why so many didn’t want Ben to even have a jersey this year. I’m not sure what people thought they’d could get better as a 8/9th guy.
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He was often team-killingly terrible last year.

He's totally transformed his game from what it was not just last year but at all previous stops of his career. The credit goes to him, he's a terror out there now.

And now that NAIA participation essentially doesn't count for NCAA eligibility purposes, I don't see why he wouldn't come back next year.
 
#52      
AirTran
I view this game as night-and-day compared with last night. Gonna be tough. We're up to the challenge.
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I'm not following you. UCLA averages 32 rebounds a game and shoots 46% from the field. If we play with the same intensity that we have been playing with the past 2 months, we should be able to have our way with them.
 
#53      
BalloonsTheElephant
NarrowJ said:
I mean they never “played through him” last year though. Our offensive actions started with KJ, Tomi, Will. His shot attempt rate is roughly the same as last year, he’s always just been a connector/shooter.

My theory is simply that this year the team is better so there’s less need for fans to point at guys that didn’t play well. My thought last year was there was too much emphasis on “Ben went 1-4 from three again, sheesh” and not enough emphasis on “KJ had 6 turnovers”

He’s way, way better defensively this year too so that has a lot to do with it too.
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Last year our emphasis was quick possessions and taking the first open shot we had. Now we are emphasizing on taking the best shot which has helped Ben get better shots and subsequently more makes.

Also, there is a lot less pressure on him to be that guy which also helps. We were such a bad shooting team last year and I think it put a lot of pressure on Ben to be the guy to hit a three, but this year the scheme allows him to get his shot and also trust others.

Most importantly, Ben has become a more complete player and a good defender. I'm glad both him and Jake stayed because they are both great players, teammates, and people.
 
#54      
hoopsfan47
Nuke Dukem said:
I think for this offense to work as well as it does, everyone has to be willing to shoot open threes without hesitation. Of course they need to make a fair amount which I think Ben has this season.
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No question and Underwood states this publicly quite often.

One thing that has become quite noticeable in respect to Ben is that too often he gets the ball on the run and shoots quickly from the arc....and seldom is able to hit it due to drifting. He does shoot better when he lets it fly with a quick rhythm, but most of the ones he makes he is able to go straight up without drifting and fire without thinking. When he does, he makes a high percentage or hits inside the rim on his misses. Good shooters never shoot air balls unless tapped on the elbow or drifting.
 
#57      
Birdus
BIG TEN REFS SUCK! Just felt like putting it out there.
 
#59      
RockfordIllini
ChiefGritty said:
He was often team-killingly terrible last year.

He's totally transformed his game from what it was not just last year but at all previous stops of his career. The credit goes to him, he's a terror out there now.

And now that NAIA participation essentially doesn't count for NCAA eligibility purposes, I don't see why he wouldn't come back next year.
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It’s true, if he wasn’t hitting shots he was a complete liability, and there were far too many games where he didn’t hit shots. What aggravated things further is he often played over a very productive player in Morez, which may have caused some bad feelings and contributed to his departure (realize it’s water under the bridge and we will likely never know specifics and we more than recovered grabbing Mirk, but still).

This year he’s a completely different player, he looks so much stronger and more athletic. He’s rebounding at a pretty good clip. He can keep guys in front of him on the perimeter and body up similarly sized players in the post. And he’s probably our second best help defender behind Z. And the last month or so he’s been hitting shots at a pretty good clip.

We have to take care of business against UCLA. But I will say, if Yaxel is a little too big and strong for Andrej to handle, I have every confidence Ben can make it tough for Yaxel to get his. Which would be an insane thought a year ago. Kudos to Ben. Not sure I would have persevered and come back after all the vitriol he received last year.
 
#60      
Poe's Law
ChiefGritty said:
He was often team-killingly terrible last year.

He's totally transformed his game from what it was not just last year but at all previous stops of his career. The credit goes to him, he's a terror out there now.

And now that NAIA participation essentially doesn't count for NCAA eligibility purposes, I don't see why he wouldn't come back next year.
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Team killing terrible last year? At Nebraska, he was bad and we lost in OT. He stunk against Duke but he was hardly a standout in that regard. He was bad against UK, but we needed more than a good game from Ben to beat them.

I don’t see his game transformed at all. I think the defensive scout reports and matchups have been consistently better. On offense he’s being slightly more selecting on his shots and the ball finds him less because of how much better the offense has been in general.

To me it’s more difference in fan reaction when he goes 0-6 from three at Nebraska or 0-6 against IU and we win. And also more reasonable expectations.
 
#62      
Bucktown
Nuke Dukem said:
I think for this offense to work as well as it does, everyone has to be willing to shoot open threes without hesitation. Of course they need to make a fair amount which I think Ben has this season.
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He's actually shooting the essentially the same 3P percentage as last year. He shoots a few less. His rebounding is up a hair. His turnovers are down. His FT% is up.
He is essentially just marginally better than last year (10-15%?). His defense seems improved. Interesting how the narrative has changed because he is not staring.
 
#63      
Fly Illini Fly!
ChiefGritty said:
He was often team-killingly terrible last year.

He's totally transformed his game from what it was not just last year but at all previous stops of his career. The credit goes to him, he's a terror out there now.

And now that NAIA participation essentially doesn't count for NCAA eligibility purposes, I don't see why he wouldn't come back next year.
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My theory with the “Ben played too much” narrative is that it’s mostly off the backs of the BEGINNING of last season. His minutes during those “team-killing” performances were often very high. Those minutes were also usually way ahead of Morez. He also started over Riley, which seemed to rub people the wrong way.

This “beginning of last season” stretch is also MOSTLY the month of December. He had a real great game against Arkansas on Nov 28, and seemed to really break out against Oregon Jan 2nd. Those 5 games in December were @Northwestern, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Missouri, Chicago State. He really had an extremely rough time in that stretch.

I do remember he had one really bad game @Nebraska in February. Tomi was out, we were shorthanded, and we were just a DREADFUL 3pt shooting team. I still have no real clue why that team was so bad at shooting threes. I guess the main answer everyone here will have is shot selection.

By the end of the season, he was not starting. Brad made a change to the starting lineup after the Duke game, and seemed to finally start our best 5 players — Boz, KJ, Riley, White, Tomi.

I actually thought Ben was a great asset in those games we won afterwards. Those back to back wins against Michigan and Purdue he played really, really well. We do not win the Purdue game without him IMO.

As far as this year, what’s most notable is his defensive improvement. Very few guys at Illinois, if any at all, can I remember having that great an improvement over just one season defensively. This really adds another valuable dimension to his game WHEN he isn’t making shots. A great example would be the @Nebraska and Indiana games.

When he IS making shots — on top of all the other things he’s provided — like yesterday or that one home game against Washington…. he’s just an incredibly valuable piece to this team.

This is way too long of a post, but I’m just happy he’s transformed himself into such a valuable role player. On such a great team no less. Much of same could be said for Jake Davis.
 
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#64      
wc_illini
Bucktown said:
He's actually shooting the essentially the same 3P percentage as last year. He shoots a few less. His rebounding is up a hair. His turnovers are down. His FT% is up.
He is essentially just marginally better than last year (10-15%?). His defense seems improved. Interesting how the narrative has changed because he is not staring.
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With our tempo dramatically slower this year, he's putting up those numbers on fewer possessions. Here are his stats per 100 possessions:
1771521384341.png


Slightly more 3pt attempts, same %
Fewer 2pt attempts, much better %
More FT attempts, much better %
More off rebounds, more def rebounds, more assists, more steals, more blocks, fewer turnovers.
Same points
Much higher off rating.
Surprised his def rating isn't more improved, but I don't trust those as much anyway. EvanMiya has his defense improved from 1.38->1.54 (higher is better in his ratings)
 
#65      
NarrowJ
wc_illini said:
With our tempo dramatically slower this year, he's putting up those numbers on fewer possessions. Here are his stats per 100 possessions:
View attachment 47702

Slightly more 3pt attempts, same %
Fewer 2pt attempts, much better %
More FT attempts, much better %
More off rebounds, more def rebounds, more assists, more steals, more blocks, fewer turnovers.
Same points
Much higher off rating.
Surprised his def rating isn't more improved, but I don't trust those as much anyway. EvanMiya has his defense improved from 1.38->1.54 (higher is better in his ratings)
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DRtg is noisy because it is heavily influenced by the other defenders on the floor
 
#66      
RabidDawgClassic
Win this game and Brad will have won on every B1G college campus.

Caveat: I phrase that as such because, technically I can’t say he’s won at every B1G arena, because while he has won at the Bryce-Jordan Center, he is winless at Penn State’s Rec Hall. But he holds victories at every main B1G venue, with Pauley Pavilion being the last remaining hurdle. Gotta catch em all!
 
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#67      
ChiefGritty
Poe's Law said:
I don’t see his game transformed at all.
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Well I dunno what to tell you man. He was an on-ball high usage rate, high efficiency offensive focal point at Evansville, and he fell apart trying to do that here last year, terrible shot selection, turning it over, contributing nothing off the ball.

His whole game starts with his energy and physicality attacking the glass now, there was none of that last year. And his offensive game is all off-ball opportunism now too. It's a completely different player.

Fly Illini Fly! said:
Much of same could be said for Jake Davis.
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Jake IMO is a much more normal progression of a player through his college career with good coaching and a good S&C program.

Just a really crafty high-IQ offensive player, which was evident in his film at Mercer, I always thought this could be his trajectory.

I gotta toot my own horn on that one a little bit, he was our first addition of that hyped transfer cycle and the Denzel-ified hoards were horrified and being soothed with insistence by the insiders that he was there to be nothing but a practice body. We get really dumb that time of year.
 
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#68      
AirTran
With our tempo dramatically slower this year, he's putting up those numbers on fewer possessions. Here are his stats per 100 possessions:
View attachment 47702

Slightly more 3pt attempts, same %
Fewer 2pt attempts, much better %
More FT attempts, much better %
More off rebounds, more def rebounds, more assists, more steals, more blocks, fewer turnovers.
Same points
Much higher off rating.
Surprised his def rating isn't more improved, but I don't trust those as much anyway. EvanMiya has his defense improved from 1.38->1.54 (higher is better in his ratings)
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You're kidding right? How many common opponents between Evansville and Illinois. What was Hummer's role in each year? What offense did each team run? And finally where are his film scores (offense and defense)?

If you are going to create some type of comparison, do you mind doing so with some objectivity and input that has value?
 
#69      
RabidDawgClassic
ChiefGritty said:
Well I dunno what to tell you man. He was an on-ball high usage rate, high efficiency offensive focal point at Evansville, and he fell apart trying to do that here last year, terrible shot selection, turning it over, contributing nothing off the ball.

His whole game starts with his energy and physicality attacking the glass now, there was none of that last year. And his offensive game is all off-ball opportunism now too. It's a completely different player.


Jake IMO is a much more normal progression of a player through his college career with good coaching and a good S&C program.

Just a really crafty high-IQ offensive player, which was evident in his film at Mercer.
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Mostly correct, but he only had 17 turnovers all year last season. That certainly wasn’t one of his issues.
 
#71      
Birdus
To me, it depends which teams show up. If we bring our A game, they will not win. If we play our B game and they come out on all cylinders, this will go down to the wire. They ran into a buzz saw in Michigan and looked daze but took Arizona to the final minutes. Jekyl and Hyde.
 
#72      
altgeld88
skyIdub said:
What I would pay to be a B1G official in this game and always respond to Tiny Mick “are you raising your voice at me?”

Would settle for a seat behind their bench with a tshirt.
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Or one of my favorite lines from Line of Duty as a crooked ex-judge is being interrogated:

"I don't believe I warm to your tone, Coach."
 
#74      
Poe's Law
ChiefGritty said:
Well I dunno what to tell you man. He was an on-ball high usage rate, high efficiency offensive focal point at Evansville, and he fell apart trying to do that here last year, terrible shot selection, turning it over, contributing nothing off the ball.

His whole game starts with his energy and physicality attacking the glass now, there was none of that last year. And his offensive game is all off-ball opportunism now too. It's a completely different player.


Jake IMO is a much more normal progression of a player through his college career with good coaching and a good S&C program.

Just a really crafty high-IQ offensive player, which was evident in his film at Mercer, I always thought this could be his trajectory.

I gotta toot my own horn on that one a little bit, he was our first addition of that hyped transfer cycle and the Denzel-ified hoards were horrified and being soothed with insistence by the insiders that he was there to be nothing but a practice body. We get really dumb that time of year.
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I do know what to tell you. Go back and read my post. At no point did I compare his role the last two years at Illinois to his much different high usage roll at UE. You implied he transformed from last year by saying not just from last year.

His game hasn’t changed so much as the pieces around him have been upgraded. His shot selection has improved, but I view that more as a function of better shots being taken by the team as a whole. Also he had 17 turnovers all of last year, so while that number likely improves this year, i don’t file it under extreme transformation.

I guess if I thought Underwood trotted out somebody who was team killing terrible for 25 minutes a game, I suppose I would see this transformation you speak of.
 
#75      
Kernal12
Maybe an unpopular take, but I've gone from disliking and being annoyed by Mick Cronin to actually finding his antics kind of humorous. He's for sure an !!!, but I now just laugh.

I went through the same evolution with Bill Walton and Bill Laimbeer many years ago. Somehow I get to the point of disliking them so much that it turns to a strange form of amusement.
 
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