Pregame: Illinois vs Jackson State, Monday, November 3rd, 7:30pm CT, BTN

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#26      
Illini4Christ
thefalcon5 said:
Assume you’re sitting Ben for Andrej, which I’m fine with but I don’t think Mirkovic starts over Ben at least to start.
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I don’t know about Mirk not starting. By the way, did you watch the ISU game?

The ISU coach said Mirk has Jokic in him, he dribbled up the court flawlessly, he gets downhill to the left and right just as equally well. and like all Euro’s can shoot from a crazy range.

Even the Sleepers were shocked with Mirk and his play. They said if Mirk didn’t start there is a real problem.
 
#27      
IlliniFan42
Benching Mirkovic because he's too good would be overthinking it. We just went through this last season when Will Riley was clearly ready to take over a starting role but we waited too long.

In basketball, not all minutes are created equal. Those first few minutes between starting fives set the tone and you're far more likely to win when you're the first to hit whatever scoring threshold you can think of. (Like Evan Miya's Race to 69.)

The point is- 30 back-up minutes are worth x% less than 30 starter minutes. I don't know what x is, but it's meaningful.
 
#28      
Brosky
You may well be right. "At least to start" may be the most important item here.
 
#29      
21ChampaignSt
I was just as impressed with Mirk as anyone but, IMO, we're getting too carried away by 30 minutes vs an undermanned mid major. We have no idea how he'll do vs high major size and athleticism or how he fits when Tomi and Andrej rejoin the lineup. Clearly he's skilled and like I said before, if he can even be half as good vs high majors as he was vs ISU that could really elevate this team to the next level. But more information will be needed before I'd be able to say he definitely should or shouldn't start.
 
#30      
MDchicago
Illini4Christ said:
Even the Sleepers were shocked with Mirk and his play. They said if Mirk didn’t start there is a real problem.
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Australia Cooking GIF by MasterChefAU


How I feel watching every Sleepers episode... Too often it's obvious they haven't done their homework (e.g., less than two weeks ago they were discussing 19 year-old Mirk as an out of shape 22 year old who lacked the upside of the 19 year Israeli PG on Purdue because he's already had those additional developmental years). But their quick pivot with another hot take after Mirk proves them wrong is also very on brand.

As MLT noted on his most recent podcast with Werner, if you always want a playmaking big on the floor, there are decent arguments for starting senior Ben alongside Tomi so Mirk is able to do his thing when Tomi is out. Mirk is going to get his minutes either way, so hardly a "there is a real problem" situation if freshman Mirk doesn't start out of the gate. Just more Sleepers clickbait. JMO.
 
#31      
illinifan1987
MDchicago said:
Australia Cooking GIF by MasterChefAU


How I feel watching every Sleepers episode... Too often it's obvious they haven't done their homework (e.g., less than two weeks ago they were discussing 19 year-old Mirk as an out of shape 22 year old who lacked the upside of the 19 year Israeli PG on Purdue because he's already had those additional developmental years). But their quick pivot with another hot take after Mirk proves them wrong is also very on brand.

As MLT noted on his most recent podcast with Werner, if you always want a playmaking big on the floor, there are decent arguments for starting senior Ben alongside Tomi so Mirk is able to do his thing when Tomi is out. Mirk is going to get his minutes either way, so hardly a "there is a real problem" situation if freshman Mirk doesn't start out of the gate. Just more Sleepers clickbait. JMO.
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Gordon Ramsay Chef GIF
gordon ramsey GIF
 
#32      
pruman91
MDchicago said:
Australia Cooking GIF by MasterChefAU


How I feel watching every Sleepers episode... Too often it's obvious they haven't done their homework (e.g., less than two weeks ago they were discussing 19 year-old Mirk as an out of shape 22 year old who lacked the upside of the 19 year Israeli PG on Purdue because he's already had those additional developmental years). But their quick pivot with another hot take after Mirk proves them wrong is also very on brand.

As MLT noted on his most recent podcast with Werner, if you always want a playmaking big on the floor, there are decent arguments for starting senior Ben alongside Tomi so Mirk is able to do his thing when Tomi is out. Mirk is going to get his minutes either way, so hardly a "there is a real problem" situation if freshman Mirk doesn't start out of the gate. Just more Sleepers clickbait. JMO.
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I stopped watching those guys a longggg time ago........very little informative info about anything related to BB......their fawning over BU and the team always seemed to cater to our fanbase to enhance their pockets but not real....JMHO......
 
#33      
IlliniTime
21ChampaignSt said:
I was just as impressed with Mirk as anyone but, IMO, we're getting too carried away by 30 minutes vs an undermanned mid major. We have no idea how he'll do vs high major size and athleticism or how he fits when Tomi and Andrej rejoin the lineup. Clearly he's skilled and like I said before, if he can even be half as good vs high majors as he was vs ISU that could really elevate this team to the next level. But more information will be needed before I'd be able to say he definitely should or shouldn't start.
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We’ve had other freshman bust out of the gate with big games. Brandon Paul, Adam Miller, maybe Georgi? Once teams start watching film of them and design defense against them, they had a more difficult time. He was a bit of an unknown in his first game. Damn good player, though. Love his skill set.
 
#34      
doowink
IlliniFan42 said:
Benching Mirkovic because he's too good would be overthinking it. We just went through this last season when Will Riley was clearly ready to take over a starting role but we waited too long.

In basketball, not all minutes are created equal. Those first few minutes between starting fives set the tone and you're far more likely to win when you're the first to hit whatever scoring threshold you can think of. (Like Evan Miya's Race to 69.)

The point is- 30 back-up minutes are worth x% less than 30 starter minutes. I don't know what x is, but it's meaningful.
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I'm sure BU and staff are and will have conversations not only with Ben, Mirk, but all players on the team in regards to their role, expectations that includes minutes and performance during those minutes. I would guess the players have imput into these conversations as well. As a coach I would tell each player...here's our expectations and plans for you and the team....are they set in stone...no....if you want to play more minutes or be used differently during those minutes then show us....force us to make changes....this should be a very fluid situation throughout the season
 
#35      
Govoner Vaugn Fan
IlliniTime said:
We’ve had other freshman bust out of the gate with big games. Brandon Paul, Adam Miller, maybe Georgi? Once teams start watching film of them and design defense against them, they had a more difficult time. He was a bit of an unknown in his first game. Damn good player, though. Love his skill set.
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Mirk took me back to the early 70's and reminded me a bit of Indiana State Freshman Larry Bird with a couple of his passes.
 
#36      
NarrowJ
doowink said:
I'm sure BU and staff are and will have conversations not only with Ben, Mirk, but all players on the team in regards to their role, expectations that includes minutes and performance during those minutes. I would guess the players have imput into these conversations as well. As a coach I would tell each player...here's our expectations and plans for you and the team....are they set in stone...no....if you want to play more minutes or be used differently during those minutes then show us....force us to make changes....this should be a very fluid situation throughout the season
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LOL right

"Benching Mirk because he's too good"

Literally nobody said that nonsense

LaTulip's point about staggering minutes some with Tomi is extremely valid
 
#37      
doowink
Not sure where the quote "Benching Mirk because he's too good" came from ....and yes I agree with LaTulip's comments about staggering players minutes...the point I was trying to make is that the staff and players will obviously communicate throughout the season...as players develop, improve, deal with injuries...that will dictate changes in maybe who starts and how minutes are distributed by the staff...thus a very fluid situation...to be honest...right now other than Kylan and Tomi, I'm not sure who should start....I'm not too worried about the whole who's starting thing...more about minutes played and situations that dictates who plays
 
#38      
NarrowJ
doowink said:
Not sure where the quote "Benching Mirk because he's too good" came from ....and yes I agree with LaTulip's comments about staggering players minutes...the point I was trying to make is that the staff and players will obviously communicate throughout the season...as players develop, improve, deal with injuries...that will dictate changes in maybe who starts and how minutes are distributed by the staff...thus a very fluid situation...to be honest...right now other than Kylan and Tomi, I'm not sure who should start....I'm not too worried about the whole who's starting thing...more about minutes played and situations that dictates who plays
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Yes was agreeing with you as well (y)

This quote was never made, is what I was saying - nobody actually thinks players get benched for being too good
 
#40      
jrichisamazing
IlliniFan42 said:
Benching Mirkovic because he's too good would be overthinking it. We just went through this last season when Will Riley was clearly ready to take over a starting role but we waited too long.

In basketball, not all minutes are created equal. Those first few minutes between starting fives set the tone and you're far more likely to win when you're the first to hit whatever scoring threshold you can think of. (Like Evan Miya's Race to 69.)

The point is- 30 back-up minutes are worth x% less than 30 starter minutes. I don't know what x is, but it's meaningful.
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I have never heard of this, do you have data or any articles about it?

Let's so we go down 10-5 in the first 5 minutes but tie the game 15-15 by the 10 minute mark. How is that any different than doing the opposite?
 
#42      
the juiceman cometh
IlliniFan42 said:
Benching Mirkovic because he's too good would be overthinking it. We just went through this last season when Will Riley was clearly ready to take over a starting role but we waited too long.

In basketball, not all minutes are created equal. Those first few minutes between starting fives set the tone and you're far more likely to win when you're the first to hit whatever scoring threshold you can think of. (Like Evan Miya's Race to 69.)

The point is- 30 back-up minutes are worth x% less than 30 starter minutes. I don't know what x is, but it's meaningful.
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There's definitely some revisionist history going on here. Will Riley had a stretch where he was borderline unplayable. From the Alabama game through the 2nd Northwestern game he was shooting 35% overall and 24% from three. After that, staring with the Nebraska game, he started to turn it around and his minutes turned around too, and within 3 weeks from that point he was starting.
 
#43      
NarrowJ
the juiceman cometh said:
There's definitely some revisionist history going on here. Will Riley had a stretch where he was borderline unplayable. From the Alabama game through the 2nd Northwestern game he was shooting 35% overall and 24% from three. After that, staring with the Nebraska game, he started to turn it around and his minutes turned around too, and within 3 weeks from that point he was starting.
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Definitely. I do remember people got excited when Will put up 31 vs Eastern Illinois in the same fashion as they're now excited about Mirkovic and pining for him to start. Will did score 18 vs Alabama, so lets give him that, but versus Ark/Tenn/Misery and the first half of the conf slate he shot 29 of 101 for 28% from the floor (stretch of 14 games).

This is also sort of why a bunch of people are cautioning "We should wait and see Mirk play against more difficult competition", because it may take him a bit to get comfortable. I'm not scared of the competition for him, he's played equal or better players in Euro ball and he also looked the part in the Hoops Summit game. He may just take some settling in, and he may just kind of hit the ground running like Queen did last year (you just ever know).

I also look and see Wagler being poised to start over 22 y/o Mihailo Petrovic which sort of proves to me that we will start whoever we think is best in that role, for whatever reason. And I can sort of see Mihailo in that Payton Pritchard/TJ McConnell role where they just come in at the 8-9 minute mark when opponent starters have had a nice little jog and bring an elevated level of energy and speed (sort of like the old school change-of-pace back concept in football, idk).
 
#45      
the juiceman cometh
NarrowJ said:
Definitely. I do remember people got excited when Will put up 31 vs Eastern Illinois in the same fashion as they're now excited about Mirkovic and pining for him to start. Will did score 18 vs Alabama, so lets give him that, but versus Ark/Tenn/Misery and the first half of the conf slate he shot 29 of 101 for 28% from the floor (stretch of 14 games).

This is also sort of why a bunch of people are cautioning "We should wait and see Mirk play against more difficult competition", because it may take him a bit to get comfortable. I'm not scared of the competition for him, he's played equal or better players in Euro ball and he also looked the part in the Hoops Summit game. He may just take some settling in, and he may just kind of hit the ground running like Queen did last year (you just ever know).

I also look and see Wagler being poised to start over 22 y/o Mihailo Petrovic which sort of proves to me that we will start whoever we think is best in that role, for whatever reason. And I can sort of see Mihailo in that Payton Pritchard/TJ McConnell role where they just come in at the 8-9 minute mark when opponent starters have had a nice little jog and bring an elevated level of energy and speed (sort of like the old school change-of-pace back concept in football, idk).
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Absolutely, he played well vs Bama and the following game vs Maryland Eastern Shore. I just started there because Bama was the first real test on the schedule. If I had started with Little Rock the numbers look even worse. Little Rock to Northwestern II he shot 30.5% overall and 19% from 3. Moving him to the starting lineup at that point would have been coaching malpractice. Which is why it's interesting to see not starting him being labeled as coaching malpractice.
 
#46      
PleaseMakeABowlGame
the juiceman cometh said:
There's definitely some revisionist history going on here. Will Riley had a stretch where he was borderline unplayable. From the Alabama game through the 2nd Northwestern game he was shooting 35% overall and 24% from three. After that, staring with the Nebraska game, he started to turn it around and his minutes turned around too, and within 3 weeks from that point he was starting.
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True, but I'm also not sure it should've taken 3 weeks, which is actually 15-20% of the entire season.

I just think you should always start your 5 best players (unless major positional instability). It helps in the overall foundation of your play. Lots left to prove, but if Mirk is worthy of starting over Ben simply going by being more productive, then I wouldn't quite get what's the holdup.
 
#47      
WhereDoWeStandWithStorr?
Riley's breakout game IMO was a game @Nebraska. It was a OT loss and there was a weird Ben for DGL sub-out late and Hummer took the first two shots of OT and finished 0-9. Dra was arguably the best player in that game.

Will then followed it up with his best game of the year IMO against Ohio State. Really become more comfortable in that mid-Januray stretch.
 
#48      
the juiceman cometh
PleaseMakeABowlGame said:
True, but I'm also not sure it should've taken 3 weeks, which is actually 15-20% of the entire season.

I just think you should always start your 5 best players (unless major positional instability). It helps in the overall foundation of your play. Lots left to prove, but if Mirk is worthy of starting over Ben simply going by being more productive, then I wouldn't quite get what's the holdup.
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At what point does a player prove they're worthy of starting? Surely, in the case of a player struggling like Riley was, it can't be one good game? Two? Three? And even though it took 3 weeks for him to start, he was hit 29+ minutes in every single one of those games after Nebraska except for the Duke game where he really struggled.

Of course you start your best 5. For most of the season Riley was not in the best 5. Maybe Mirk already is. Maybe he isn't. Maybe he isn't yet but will be at some point in the season. I don't think we know yet.
 
#49      
NarrowJ
PleaseMakeABowlGame said:
True, but I'm also not sure it should've taken 3 weeks, which is actually 15-20% of the entire season.

I just think you should always start your 5 best players (unless major positional instability). It helps in the overall foundation of your play. Lots left to prove, but if Mirk is worthy of starting over Ben simply going by being more productive, then I wouldn't quite get what's the holdup.
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During the very same stretch that Will struggled shooting under 30%, Ben shot 42% (and 38% from 3) across those same games

Regardless of that data point, coaches have been bringing starter-level (talent and production wise) players off the bench for many, many years. I'm 46 years old and this practice even pre-dates myself. I remember watching Detlef Schrempf, Cliff Robinson, etcetera many moons ago, but this has remained and still is extremely common today. Its good to be able to bring someone in off of the bench that can be the lead dog of the 2nd unit, stagger minutes for players with similar archetypes, etcetera. If you manage your lineup to where you have a 5 minute stretch in the middle of both halves where you have your entire 2nd team in, that just isn't optimal.
 
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