Pregame: Illinois vs Notre Dame, Monday, November 29th, 8:00pm CT, ESPN2

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#51      

ChiefGritty

ChiefGritty
Chicago, IL
ChiefGritty
skyIdub said:
Come on now?? The Gritty Hyperbole Machine is cranked up again! Lol. (feel free to TM)

We have certainly "imploded" in a game this year.....but to assert that the injuries and lack of consistent line up so far this year is a full on team implosion is ridiculous hyperbole.
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I mean the reasons can be what ever the reasons need to be, but the team we have seen thus far is not remotely up to the challenge of the schedule that's coming.

This is what I mean by under-reacting to the short term and over-reacting to the long term.

I see both "oh it's just because we haven't been able to practice together, this is still a Final Four contender" and "Underwood doesn't make adjustments, this system just doesn't work" in the same threads. Those are both wrong! (There are also weird notes of underrating how phenomenal we were last year just because we soiled the bed against Loyola).

I believe in the recipe now more than ever (<---- pull quote that statement rather than taking the most pessimistic phrases out of context please), but we've got a weird batch baking here and it is going to be very, very difficult going forward.

Marquette, Cincinnati, Kansas State, and UTRGV are what we thought they were. We aren't.

That's no reason to give up. But this whole season in our fanbase's mind has been premised on the fact that we destroyed Michigan at Michigan without Ayo last year. That set the expectation that we're going to be that same kind of force in the same way with the same personnel going forward into this year. That was just flat-out mistaken, the book is closed there.

That's what I mean by "implosion". We were ranked #11 and our fans and certain number-crunching methods regarded that as an insult. This was going to roll on as a continuation of last year's juggernaut. Welp, hard reboot from that expectation level. The question is how can we remix these ingredients in a way that can be effective? We've got an All-American unguardable beast in the middle, just start building out from there.
 
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#52      

Hopingfor500

H
Hopingfor500
skyIdub said:
Come on now?? The Gritty Hyperbole Machine is cranked up again! Lol. (feel free to TM)

We have certainly "imploded" in a game this year.....but to assert that the injuries and lack of consistent line up so far this year is a full on team implosion is ridiculous hyperbole.
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I don't think that the team has imploded, but I think that the expectations of the group definitely has. There are far, far, far more questions than answers right now and that extends beyond the injuries. I don't think that we can say that we have the PG position figured out, I don't think that we have the guard situation, as a whole, figured out and our depth is questionable. As we sit here today(to be clear), we are not a very good basketball team. We have two losses(one of them being a beating), a close call against TRG and our our only known commodity is Kofi.

This could all change in a week.
 
#54      

King Snake

K
King Snake
ChiefGritty said:
But this whole season in our fanbase's mind has been premised on the fact that we destroyed Michigan at Michigan without Ayo last year.
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That’s not why, we have a veteran team and bring back potentially two all American type players. That’s why we had hope very a very very good season. This has nothing to do with the win at Michigan.
They play with zero confidence and barely fight. Show up to play the game, I don’t blame the players entirely, I blame a lot on the coaching. They are using the same style defense as last year which doesn’t always translate to the next team. Coach based on your roster, if it’s necessary, play a zone (which lately seems necessary).
 
#55      

lstewart53x3

lstewart53x3
Scottsdale, Arizona
lstewart53x3
King Snake said:
That’s not why, we have a veteran team and bring back potentially two all American type players. That’s why we had hope very a very very good season. This has nothing to do with the win at Michigan.
They play with zero confidence and barely fight. Show up to play the game, I don’t blame the players entirely, I blame a lot on the coaching. They are using the same style defense as last year which doesn’t always translate to the next team. Coach based on your roster, if it’s necessary, play a zone (which lately seems necessary).
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When part of your problem on defense is inexperience, lack of communication, and mental errors, I’m not sure changing defenses to one you haven’t practiced before is necessarily the best solution, even if it would cover up some holes.
 
#56      

grue2

G
grue2
Hopingfor500 said:
... our our only known commodity is Kofi.
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I think we have a few more known commodities:
- DMFW. Defense. Smart plays. A good set 3 shooter. I wish he'd take more when he is set.
- Plummer. Heater supreme who plays terrible man to man defense.
- Grandison. Solid D. Good offense. Doesn't seem to be a driving threat.

We are either going to give up a lot of interior fouls or layups while Plummer plays. Kofi did a fantastic job of covering for him. Kofi changed a ton of shots and forced a lot of floaters. He isn't to Egwu's defensive level yet. His defense is very good and improving.

I think the team would do much better if they had a set of offensive plays that did not start with the PG driving 3 ft past the free throw line straight into the lane they are packing for Kofi. On the very, very, few plays where we got a kickout and passed it around the horn, we looked really good. I'd like to see DMW be the third person on the arc (far side of kickout) if possible. It would give him a set shot.

Many of our turnovers come from that initial drive into trouble. If we cut the turnovers in half (only 10/game), then we win handily.
 
#57      

King Snake

K
King Snake
lstewart53x3 said:
When part of your problem on defense is inexperience, lack of communication, and mental errors, I’m not sure changing defenses to one you haven’t practiced before is necessarily the best solution, even if it would cover up some holes.
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Our defense is so much harder to execute which is why they spend so much time on it. I’m fine with running what they run going forward but if you don’t have the roster at the time to run the defense you want, then you switch to something you CAN execute better. If we are getting killed on two point baskets then it’s okay to try and switch defense to throw off the offense. I’m just not understanding why we don’t adjust at times.
 
#58      

texillwek

texillwek
🔶🔹🔸🔷
texillwek
EyeoftheIllini said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465035000504590336
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*Looks up at basketball gods, pleads for some mercy*

Paul George What GIF by LA Clippers
 
#59      

mikraso

M
The Urb
mikraso
illinitiger said:
Good D against Kofi...is hard to execute, but when implemented consistently, will result in beating Illini. Currently we are a one trick pony.

I still dont understand why we haven't posted Kofi high and let him be a kickout artist or trailer to basket.

With him drawing a crowd down at low post, we will almost always have conjestion and limit others from making plays at basket.
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Agreed with this assessment, but I’ll add that part of Kofi being in the lane is his ability to box out for someone to cut/drive to the basket. We saw that a lot with Ayo and Curbelo both last year and have seen it a few times this year. Our other bigs are not holding up that bargain when Kofi sits, though. Which is part of the problem with the end of the Marquette game, I think. I’m rambling, my apologies!
 
#62      

2qtslow

2qtslow
2qtslow
Piper has BU suggesting we may have as few as six players tomorrow night. Flu?

It would be nice to see an entire healthy team at some point.
 
#63      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
2qtslow said:
Piper has BU suggesting we may have as few as six players tomorrow night. Flu?

It would be nice to see an entire healthy team at some point.
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If we're only playing 6, then we're in trouble. I've heard we might be without Trent, Belo, Grandison, and BBV.

That leaves (as a best case scenario): DMW, Hawkins, Plummer, Kofi, Hutcherson, and Payne for a six-player rotation?
 
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#66      

WyattEarp

WyattEarp
WyattEarp
lstewart53x3 said:
When part of your problem on defense is inexperience, lack of communication, and mental errors, I’m not sure changing defenses to one you haven’t practiced before is necessarily the best solution, even if it would cover up some holes.
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I’m not trying to pick a fight. I just respectfully disagree. I believe there is a WAY more favorable learning curve to putting in a simple but effective zone than there is locking down the brand of rugged man D that Brad wants. (Ordinarily that’s a good thing and I like that about him.) But when were: depleted like we are, can’t guard ball screens, and struggling mightily even guarding straight line drives. We need to just work on keeping them in front of us if nothing else. A reasonably well executed zone accomplishes that. Ball screens are often less effective against zones. I’m not saying a zone defense is a magic bullet; because it’s not. But I think it has to at least be considered at this point. It doesn’t have to be as polished as Syracuse. It just has to function...and be used as a secondary defense. As for the inexperience with it…I find it hard to believe that MOST of these guys do not have ANY experience somewhere in their basketball journey with a zone defense. At the very least I would imagine they at least understand the basic zone slides of a: 2-3, 3-2, 1-3-1. If they did not, whatever junior high, high school or AAU team they played on failed them.

Bill Self used a triangle and two to win a game a game in the tourney one year when nothing else would work to my knowledge they didn’t run it all year prior to that. Yes, I know it is a junk defense but I’m almost positive we’d give up less lay-ups.
 
#67      

Snoopy

S
Snoopy
WyattEarp said:
Bill Self used a triangle and two to win a game a game in the tourney one year when nothing else would work to my knowledge they didn’t run it all year prior to that. Yes, I know it is a junk defense but I’m almost positive we’d give up less lay-ups.
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Question is, does BU think winning this one game is more important than teaching the team? BU seems like Izzo in that he's more than willing (or just too stubborn to compromise) to lose a game or five early in the season to teach the team some lessons. How good the top teams are, playing on the road in front of large noisy crowds, how to play man-to-man against top guards, how to be tough, etc. The past few years this has paid off in epic B1G runs.
 
#68      

BRucks

BRucks
BRucks
LouHenson said:
Your right I am sure but we have 2 small guards to hide would seem to be nice to have a tall player out top to affect 3 point shots. I just know our guards (especially without Trent) can guard the driver coming off the pick. It just puts so much pressure on our back line defense.
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ND is really long at the guard slots. We can hardly play multiple small guards together for extended periods.
 
#69      

Loyalillini10

L
Urbana, IL
Loyalillini10
blife said:
BU, in the video, sounded really frustrated with Belo's inability to get back on the court. Seems like it is not anything concussion related, not anything physical that the Docs can find....so where is this inability to play coming from? No indication there is anything wrong with his neck other than people saying they saw cup marks, but no diagnosis of strain or pull. Hope it is not some other bigger problem. Hope we see the old Belo on the floor tomorrow night.
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The cup bruising on his neck were very visible and easy to see. The way you write it, you make it sound like a rumor, which is what you are trying to start with the “not anything physical” speculation.
 
#70      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
Cupping therapy is sometimes used to manage concussion or post-concussion symptoms: LINK.

Persistent post-concussive symptoms can occur and last long after the initial injury: LINK. These symptoms can include fatigue, which might sound familiar to those who have watched Belo collapse into the arms of coaching staff each time after coming out of the game.
 
#71      

WyattEarp

WyattEarp
WyattEarp
Snoopy said:
Question is, does BU think winning this one game is more important than teaching the team? BU seems like Izzo in that he's more than willing (or just too stubborn to compromise) to lose a game or five early in the season to teach the team some lessons. How good the top teams are, playing on the road in front of large noisy crowds, how to play man-to-man against top guards, how to be tough, etc. The past few years this has paid off in epic B1G runs.
Click to expand...
I don’t see it as either-or. If we ran a zone sparingly a minute here and there. They would still be running their man defense most of the time. Thus, they would still be learning it and fine tuning it as they went. Underwood wouldn’t be abandoning his principles.

As competitive as Brad is do you really think he wants to lose 5 games or the next 5 or whatever?( Just to prove a point or teach a lesson) One game, okay I can understand that but 5 or more? Yikes! That’s a risky proposition the way we’re playing. At some point they really start to matter; and they effect our standing.

Yes…we owe him plenty of gratitude for putting us back on the map. The B1G run was awesome.
 
#72      

purcy51

P
Nappanee, IN
purcy51
Loyalillini10 said:
The cup bruising on his neck were very visible and easy to see. The way you write it, you make it sound like a rumor, which is what you are trying to start with the “not anything physical” speculation.
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blife, watch the presser after the K-State game. Brad definitely said Belo is dealing with post-concussion related trauma. That is most definitively physical.
 
#74      

skyIdub

skyIdub
Winged Warrior
skyIdub
ChiefGritty said:
I mean the reasons can be what ever the reasons need to be, but the team we have seen thus far is not remotely up to the challenge of the schedule that's coming.

This is what I mean by under-reacting to the short term and over-reacting to the long term.

I see both "oh it's just because we haven't been able to practice together, this is still a Final Four contender" and "Underwood doesn't make adjustments, this system just doesn't work" in the same threads. Those are both wrong! (There are also weird notes of underrating how phenomenal we were last year just because we soiled the bed against Loyola).

I believe in the recipe now more than ever (<---- pull quote that statement rather than taking the most pessimistic phrases out of context please), but we've got a weird batch baking here and it is going to be very, very difficult going forwar

Marquette, Cincinnati, Kansas State, and UTRGV are what we thought they were. We aren't.

That's no reason to give up. But this whole season in our fanbase's mind has been premised on the fact that we destroyed Michigan at Michigan without Ayo last year. That set the expectation that we're going to be that same kind of force in the same way with the same personnel going forward into this year. That was just flat-out mistaken, the book is closed there.

That's what I mean by "implosion". We were ranked #11 and our fans and certain number-crunching methods regarded that as an insult. This was going to roll on as a continuation of last year's juggernaut. Welp, hard reboot from that expectation level. The question is how can we remix these ingredients in a way that can be effective? We've got an All-American unguardable beast in the middle, just start building out from there.
Click to expand...

Thanks Gritty, this is much needed context, but it still is more 'falling short of pre-season expectations early on' rather than an "implosion".
It is quite reasonable to infer that the early struggles are in fact directly resulting from a myriad of issues....suspensions, injuries, lack of a cohesive rotation/line up...both in practice and in games.

This team, and this coaching staff have earned the benefit of doubt. I will withhold larger judgement until they have been given the opportunity to recreate what we saw last season sans Ayo.

We see great tourney teams go through these early games like this every year.... without the same issues we have faced so far this season. It stands to reason that we would have a serious challenge trying to compensate for all of these issues so far. I don't think they are "excuses", and I don't think the coach or the team are using them as such. Great teams use these as motivation and learning tools. We'll find out soon enough if that's the case for this team.

An implosion implies a violent ending or collapse of a system...and that is just not applicable here....yet.
 
#75      

skyIdub

skyIdub
Winged Warrior
skyIdub
I know it's behind the subscription pay wall...but if you were ever inclined to join The Athletic....this is just an example of their excellent content....

I am not a paid shill...just linking for anyone interested.
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theathletic.com

What’s ailing Illinois? Three days behind the scenes with an Illini team trying to rediscover its joy

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — The film finishes on Sunday night inside a conference room at the Downtown Marriott, and Illinois coach Brad Underwood has a message that he wants his players thinking about when they go to bed. “It’s time to go be great again,” Underwood says, repeating the line so it...
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A very good look inside the locker room during the trip to KC and all of the injury fallout.

Brad Underwood is just an outstanding leader of our program.

"We love no other....."
 
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