St Louis Cardinals 2025

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#76      
the juiceman cometh
gibb52 said:
Bloom will have more resources in Stl than he had in TB. No one here knows how much more but there will be more jingle available.
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Sure but Bloom also had a much higher payroll in Boston than STL will ever give him. Didn't work out great. I think Bloom is better suited to a Rays-like strategy and I think that's what he was hired for.
 
#77      
Se Il Illini
the juiceman cometh said:
I think if anything they're going to shed more payroll. I expect them to be bottom third in the league by opening day (all it would take at this point is shedding Arenado's contract).

My biggest concern is that we're never going to see payroll go back up to top third of the league (top 10) levels. I think the goal is to inhabit the middle of the league and be competitive occasionally, not annually. And when I say competitive, more "make the playoffs, see what happens" than "do whatever it takes to win a WS." Essentially, the Cardinals will be run like a truly small market team. Hopefully a well-run small market team. But a small market team, nonetheless. This seems to be the BDW vision.

I get that Chaim Bloom is a very smart guy, who did a great job with the Rays. The DeWitts really seem to want this organization to mimic those Rays. Just go ahead and look up the results of the Rays from the years 2005-2019 (the years Bloom was there) and then compare them to the results of the Cardinals in the same years. Is there a Cardinals fan alive who would trade away our results for the Rays' results? The only thing that makes the Rays' accomplishments seem impressive is that they had a very limited payroll to work with. I think that's the part that is most appealing to ownership.
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Is the Cardinal fan base ready to accept a game plan that mimics the Rays organization from 2005-2019. Clearly ownership is banking on the idea that the fans will lower expectations. We will see how things shake out this year.
 
#78      
wpr
Se Il Illini said:
Is the Cardinal fan base ready to accept a game plan that mimics the Rays organization from 2005-2019. Clearly ownership is banking on the idea that the fans will lower expectations. We will see how things shake out this year.
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Short answer- no. I have already heard or read that many fans are taking a gap year or two waiting for the front office to get their act together. Season ticket sales will be down slightly. That's because companies buy them as a tax write off. They give them to clients, employees and donate their tickets. In the long run, the write off is more important than the product on the field.
 
#79      
gibb52
the juiceman cometh said:
Sure but Bloom also had a much higher payroll in Boston than STL will ever give him. Didn't work out great. I think Bloom is better suited to a Rays-like strategy and I think that's what he was hired for.
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Bloom was charged with dumping payroll in Boston. By the time he takes the reins here that will have been done for him. Clean slate. He gets his chance, all we can do he hope he's the guy.
 
#80      
the juiceman cometh
gibb52 said:
Bloom was charged with dumping payroll in Boston. By the time he takes the reins here that will have been done for him. Clean slate. He gets his chance, all we can do he hope he's the guy.
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Doesn't that tell you something? He was the "keep payroll down" guy in TB. Then the "dump payroll" guy in BOS. Then he comes into STL which has a below league average payroll by the time he's here...is he suddenly going to be the "we can spend more" guy? Of course not.

Let me put it this way. Under Bloom, there is zero chance Pujols walks in free agency...because he'd have traded Pujols for prospects before the 2011 season. We'd have a bunch of exciting prospects. But we might be short one World Series. That's kind of how I see the difference in philosophy between Bloom and Mo, and between our ownership now vs 10-15 years ago.

I think Bloom is probably good. I just don't think it matters with this ownership. The most charitable take on Bloom's time in Boston was that he was hamstrung by bad ownership. I think that's probably accurate. Well, the problem is our ownership is not any better.
 
#81      
Illwinsagain
the juiceman cometh said:
Doesn't that tell you something? He was the "keep payroll down" guy in TB. Then the "dump payroll" guy in BOS. Then he comes into STL which has a below league average payroll by the time he's here...is he suddenly going to be the "we can spend more" guy? Of course not.

Let me put it this way. Under Bloom, there is zero chance Pujols walks in free agency...because he'd have traded Pujols for prospects before the 2011 season. We'd have a bunch of exciting prospects. But we might be short one World Series. That's kind of how I see the difference in philosophy between Bloom and Mo, and between our ownership now vs 10-15 years ago.

I think Bloom is probably good. I just don't think it matters with this ownership. The most charitable take on Bloom's time in Boston was that he was hamstrung by bad ownership. I think that's probably accurate. Well, the problem is our ownership is not any better.
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I hope that Bloom can build the base with young talent, with a couple becoming All-star type performers. Fill in with high priced FAs, when they can put the team over the top. I know that we will never spend like the top 5-7 clubs, but support and $ should be there to spend in the top 10, when the team has a solid lineup and pitching staff.
 
#82      
the juiceman cometh
Illwinsagain said:
I hope that Bloom can build the base with young talent, with a couple becoming All-star type performers. Fill in with high priced FAs, when they can put the team over the top. I know that we will never spend like the top 5-7 clubs, but support and $ should be there to spend in the top 10, when the team has a solid lineup and pitching staff.
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I've seen zero evidence of this. Last season the #10 payroll on opening day was around $210 million. We were more than $30 million shy of that mark. In 2023 the #10 payroll was $195 million. We were $25 million shy of that mark. In 2022 the #10 payroll was $170 million. We were $20 million shy of that mark. Do you see what I'm getting at? We've been getting further and further away from a top ten payroll every year. And now we hire a guy whose whole resume is his involvement in a team noted for its ability to spend almost nothing and make it to the playoffs.
 
#83      
Illwinsagain
the juiceman cometh said:
I've seen zero evidence of this. Last season the #10 payroll on opening day was around $210 million. We were more than $30 million shy of that mark. In 2023 the #10 payroll was $195 million. We were $25 million shy of that mark. In 2022 the #10 payroll was $170 million. We were $20 million shy of that mark. Do you see what I'm getting at? We've been getting further and further away from a top ten payroll every year. And now we hire a guy whose whole resume is his involvement in a team noted for its ability to spend almost nothing and make it to the playoffs.
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I looked up the numbers after posting, probably should have before. Last year, according to the internet (so I know it is true), we were 12th in both total payroll and payroll for the 26 active players.

Obviously, this year, we will be WAY below that.
 
#84      
Se Il Illini
I think there are stats out there someplace that show a team must be top 12 (or there about) in spending to win the world series. I think this may be a 10 year stat.
 
#86      
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
Se Il Illini said:
Is the Cardinal fan base ready to accept a game plan that mimics the Rays organization from 2005-2019. Clearly ownership is banking on the idea that the fans will lower expectations. We will see how things shake out this year.
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Me personally I'd prefer to not have to deal with the fair weather portion of the fan base. These are the people you would see during playoff runs that would act as if they had followed the team all year but were casual fans at best. Yeah, attendance would fall off but you'd see people that would more dedicated to sticking through the team, especially if they decided to go through a true rebuild.
 
#87      
Chillinini
Problem with Cards under Mo is that they overvalue and underdevelop their prospects/young talent more than any org lately. Really stagnant in their philosophy.

Bloom and company has to rebuild the infrastructure. We are seeing that with more monies budgeted and spent for more coaches and instructors at the lower levels on up. More scouts. Better and efficient analytics. Got rid of some the old guard. Enough of the "Cardinal Way". That parable and lore is no longer effective nor tangible.
Time for "A Winning Way" from the lower levels on up.

As a long time fan, never went to a game last season. Was fed up. Same for this upcoming season. Need proof first before they deserve my money.
 
#88      
wpr
Chillinini said:
Problem with Cards under Mo is that they overvalue and underdevelop their prospects/young talent more than any org lately. Really stagnant in their philosophy.

Bloom and company has to rebuild the infrastructure. We are seeing that with more monies budgeted and spent for more coaches and instructors at the lower levels on up. More scouts. Better and efficient analytics. Got rid of some the old guard. Enough of the "Cardinal Way". That parable and lore is no longer effective nor tangible.
Time for "A Winning Way" from the lower levels on up.

As a long time fan, never went to a game last season. Was fed up. Same for this upcoming season. Need proof first before they deserve my money.
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According to Vivid Tickets the average price per seat is $110. Throw in parking, a snack and it can be pretty expensive. I have an 8 hour round trip to deal with so I need a room, gas and meals. Just to watch one game it is over $500 for me and my wife. If we bring anyone with us we're at $1000 for a game.
 
#89      
Chillinini
wpr said:
According to Vivid Tickets the average price per seat is $110. Throw in parking, a snack and it can be pretty expensive. I have an 8 hour round trip to deal with so I need a room, gas and meals. Just to watch one game it is over $500 for me and my wife. If we bring anyone with us we're at $1000 for a game.
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It's outrageous that the owners and org expect us fans to flock to the stadium like lemmings when they put a mediocre product on the field. I hope more and more fans realize it and avoid the stadium. Like you said, it ain't worth that amount of money.

Only time any of my family goes, it's my son, if he gets free tix or he'd rather watch the visiting teams like LAD, NYY, etc. that put on a decent show.
 
#90      
the juiceman cometh
Chillinini said:
It's outrageous that the owners and org expect us fans to flock to the stadium like lemmings when they put a mediocre product on the field. I hope more and more fans realize it and avoid the stadium. Like you said, it ain't worth that amount of money.

Only time any of my family goes, it's my son, if he gets free tix or he'd rather watch the visiting teams like LAD, NYY, etc. that put on a decent show.
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This is the crux of it. The thing that irritates me is that our fanbase has been incredible for this ownership, and not received the same dedication in return. Until this past season, pretty much a guaranteed top 5 (often as high as #2) attendance in the league. Very rarely a top 5 product, and pretty much never a top-5 investment. And want to know the craziest thing? Even after all that happened the last 2 years, in 2024 the Cards were still #7 in attendance. As as been pointed out, it is expensive to go to baseball games. It is often inconvenient. And if the team sucks, it's hard to justify. And yet our fanbase has for years reliably forked over huge sums of money to cheer this team on.

It's a shame that ownership took the dedication of this fanbase for granted, because they're starting to lose it, and with this rebuild I think we finally will see those numbers dip significantly. Who knows if we'll ever get back to those top-5 in the league type numbers? And you know if we don't, ownership will cry poor and use it as an excuse not to invest.
 
#91      
Chillinini
And the "fair weather fans" narrative is worn out and passe. In this day and age, if the team is not dedicating their resources for improving the club, why should I pay $500 - $1000 a pop for mediocrity?

I love baseball. I'd rather watch ambitious kids playing a HS, college, minor league game or watch at a bar or home.
 
#92      
illiniwil
the only cardinal game i will attend this year will be a road game at one or two of the ballparks i have yet to visit. that narrows my choices down to 3 and one i will never visit in oakland. this ownership needs to sell and get out of the business. the fans aren't coming back without a 85-90 win team, we are far away from that. (in a weak division)

BTW i regularly attend 8-10 a year in STL and will miss the city.
 
#93      
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
illiniwil said:
this ownership needs to sell and get out of the business. the fans aren't coming back without a 85-90 win team, we are far away from that. (in a weak division)
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#96      
jmwillini
And, yes, I am really scared this is the 90's Cardinals after Auggie died. His kid was a soccer fan Don't believe DeWitt III gives a rat's fanny about baseball itself., just $$$.

Please sell....
 
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