The point still remains that the three managers Mozeliak hired Matheny, Schildt, and Marmol have never won a World Series title. And the only one, who has managed in a World Seriers is Mike Matheny. And they were all first time major league managers. I will just respond to something that was said above. I would speculate that no matter the sport all great coaches are hard to work for because they expect a certain standard of excellence.
St Louis Cardinals 2025
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Matheny is kind of the poster child for why managers really don't matter much at all.
Went to 3 straight NLCS to start his career with a WS appearance in 2013, won the division his first 3/4 years, but was by all accounts a terrible manager who deployed some of the dumbest things I've ever seen on a baseball field, who even the players didn't really like, and flunked at his next stop with the Royals as well.
I do not disagree about Matheny. He was handed a Rolls Royce and treated it like a Model T. If Cardinal management and ownership had hired some one with some ability or competency the Redbirds might have 1 or 2 more championships. So in my view the manager can make a difference. When Bill Veeck owned the St. Louis Browns, he had a day when a group of fans made all the managerial decisions.
I think the Cubs did that too. In the 50's?
See, I don't take the same lesson from that.
In 2011, LaRussa won the WS in 7 games as a result of some pretty wild and unpredictable things happening. Game 6, facing elimination, LaRussa puts Lance Lynn into a tied game, and Lynn gives up back-to-back homers. One strike away from losing the entire series, David Freese, a guy who'd hit 2 triples in his entire MLB career, hits a triple to tie the game. Then LaRussa keeps Motte in for his second inning of work, and he gives up 2 runs to put the Cards back down 9-7, with Descalso, Jay, and Lohse up to bat in the bottom of the inning. Yikes. Somehow the bottom of the Cardinals lineup delivers, sends the game to the 11th inning, where Freese makes history. The thing is, before that moment, Freese completely bailed LaRussa out in a situation where 95% of the time, Cardinals lose, and then the bottom of the order did it again. LaRussa didn't do anything special to win that game. The players won it in spite of some of the decisions he made that didn't work out.
In contrast, the 2013 World Series, we lost because the bats went silent. Our OPS for the series was a pathetic .572. Freese sucked. Matt Adams sucked. Matt Carpenter, who had had what turned out to be the best season of his career, sucked. And then other weird stuff hurt us. Pete Kozma, who's entire purpose as a baseball player is to not mess up on defense, committed 2 errors in one game. Kolten Wong slips and gets picked off to end game 4 (you can argue that Matheney gets the blame for putting Wong in, but does anybody really thing Allen Craig was a better baserunner than Wong? It was the right call). Wacha, who had been absolutely lights out that postseason, gets shellacked in game 6. So other than mess around with the lineup, which probably wouldn't have helped, I'm not sure what Matheney was supposed to do.
I mean, at the end it just comes down to whose players perform, and some luck. If it's close, in a 1 or 2 run game, maybe the manager makes a difference. But in that 2013 World Series, Boston outscored us 27-14. We won 2/4 close games. The difference was the two games Boston ran away with. That's not on Matheney. So while I agree that LaRussa >>> Matheney, I don't actually think that's why Matheney didn't win a World Series, and I don't think having a different manager instead of Matheney necessarily means we would have had more success. If you have specific examples of what LaRussa did in 2011 that Matheney did not do in 2013, or vice versa, that accounts for the different results, I'd be interested to re-evaluate.
Maybe you're confusing it with the College of Coaches in 1961 and 1962. There was an 8 coach panel with a rotating "head coach". Utter chaos.
Ryllini
- Lombard
Sorry mistype, birds were up 2-1 in series
I think the Cubs thing was that they had manager by committee. One guy would manage one week, for example. Then another would step in and manage. I do not remember how many different managers they used. I believe they rotated like that during one whole season.
Yeah I know they did that.
jmwillini
- Tolono, IL
If I recall rightly the Tappe brothers from Quincy, IL were part of this experiment. Yes, I'm old enough to remember.
Exactly. Thank you. Early 60's apparently.
The times they are a changin...
redbirdrants.com
Chaim Bloom moves on from key advisor with deep ties to Cardinals organization
Super Joe will be finding a new role this offseason.
redbirdrants.com
pruman91
- interviewing new NL's daily....I really really am
Donovan had surgery to repair a "sports hernia," the team confirmed Friday.
Ivan Herrera had the planned procedure on his right elbow to remove what the team described as "bone spurring."
Lars Nootbaar had surgery on both of his heels to shave down Haglund's deformities. Those are bone growths on the back of the heel where the Achilles' tendon attaches.
Both Donovan and Nootbaar are 28 years old and 2 years away from free agency........It's already been reported that both players have been eyed by other organizations as trade possibilities ........
Would you consider trading either or both Donovan and Nootbaar ?
the more you know..............
Ivan Herrera had the planned procedure on his right elbow to remove what the team described as "bone spurring."
Lars Nootbaar had surgery on both of his heels to shave down Haglund's deformities. Those are bone growths on the back of the heel where the Achilles' tendon attaches.
Both Donovan and Nootbaar are 28 years old and 2 years away from free agency........It's already been reported that both players have been eyed by other organizations as trade possibilities ........
Would you consider trading either or both Donovan and Nootbaar ?
the more you know..............
Ryllini
- Lombard
Definitely both. I like Donny a great deal, but dealing would probably bring back a decent haul.
pruman91
- interviewing new NL's daily....I really really am
I concur on both.........being 28 is supposedly entering a player's prime age and Donovan has been a hard nosed All Star and Gold Glove player for the Cardinals and definitely would bring back more in a trade than Nootbaar......This past season was Nootbaar's most games played in his career and he posted career low numbers across the board ....reminds me of TON as far as number of injuries.........I think Nootbaar needs to go even if the return would be less than expected.....
As far as to Gorman and Walker my worst fear is that they finally figure it out but not while they are Cardinals...........it's going to be very interesting to see what the new FO does with the roster this off season and how us fans view the new roster make up on opening day next season.......
I also feel that it's going to take at least 5-6 years before attendance improves back to that 3 million plus level.......I just hope to see another post season appearance and/or a WS team/winner before I retire to that big baseball diamond in the next dimension.....
I really really do.......
Ryllini
- Lombard
I'm really hoping Gorman and Walker can figure it out. We have a little more time with those two. I think Gorman is under team control thru 28 and Walker 29 or 30. I firmly believe there is 30-35 hr potential in that Gorman bat and a .270-.280 hitter with 20-25 hr's in Walker's.
Walker does give more of a glimpse, but it seems like he just reverts back to his way.
If you were to package Donny, what would you be seeking? Pitching? You can never have enough. Outfield bats? We have a nothingburger as far as power out there right now.
Walker does give more of a glimpse, but it seems like he just reverts back to his way.
If you were to package Donny, what would you be seeking? Pitching? You can never have enough. Outfield bats? We have a nothingburger as far as power out there right now.
Yes. If you're going to compete on a budget you need an ace and strong #2/3 pitchers, and you need them to come from the farm, because those are very expensive in free agency. Also more prone to injury and to just plain not reaching their potential so you need lots of it in the hopes enough prospects pan out at the same time.
Outfield bats, I think are easier to find in free agency or via trade once you have the pitching in place to compete.
pruman91
- interviewing new NL's daily....I really really am
Yes , a SP under team control for 3-4 years and a viable BP guy with same team control....I believe Liam Doyle will be in the rotation in STL sometime next year........got to keep an eye on IP but the need is great for the Cardinals..........and the other pitcher drafted from the Vols seems to be on the short track to big club from what I have read on him.......
the Cardinals have a quantity of infielders and outfielders but as far as quality they don't have many that stand out above the rest......
I expect the club finally gets to move Arenado as he can see it will be a while before contending for post season play will arrive and he should expand his no trade list to more teams....the bigger question will be how much $$$$$ will we have to cover to get it done.....
Finally , I want to see JJ Wetherholt on the opening day roster starting at 2nd or 3rd base and leaving him at one position so he can concentrate on batting as there is great skill in his bat with a high average and OPS potential....( potential is my least favorite word as far as baseball is concerned ) ............................it really really is.......
Ryllini
- Lombard
I definitely agree about the pitching. I think definitely in the immediate they should load up on as much pitching as possible. I do however think, if a position player that has a +bat with +power grade, they shouldn't hesitate. We can have all of the pitching, but if we are a station to station club built largely from within like Milwaukee, well you see what happens when the big boys come around. Those type teams can beat you every way. The Brewers are a great regular season team, but not built for a sustained playoff run. It is true that it is easier to get outfield and AB help, but how much impact are getting and for how long? When the big money comes looking, that is where the water finds it level more than ever now and then you hope a Kyle Tucker sticks around or a Andrew Vaughn has finally found it.
Trade em and get some players for the future.
Unlike when I was younger there is no one on this team that is untouchable.(A nod to the 5 Untouchables in 55. Include Red Schoendienst.
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