The mascot debate/fandom thread

[1970 John]

I went to the PSU game with a guy who used to be (don't know if he still is) Loyalty Circle and had been on Guenther's speed dial for RG's entire tenure. He's still got connections and communication with big players, and he states unequivocally that Kingfisher isn't going to happen, and also that Chief's return is never going to happen. I had a great conversation with him and learned a lot about some of the politics in play.

This guy happened to have taken part in a gathering somewhere out west (not sure of the timeline, but I think it was post-Chief retirement) that included a bunch of UI high-rollers and leaders from a number of tribes, with the purpose of having a dialogue and to see if there was a path to an agreement similar to that between the Seminole and FSU. The leaders from the Peoria (the last vestige of the Illini Confederation) were adamantly opposed to even discussing Chief, wanted the university to return the regalia to the Sioux, and wanted the image of the Chief to go away forever. Their basis for this was a) Chief's regalia and war paint was nothing like what any of the Illiniwek would have worn--the headdress in particular; b) Chief's dance was more related to "fancy dancing", which Illiniwek did not engage in; and c) the image/logo of Chief was also inauthentic due to the headdress.

The discussion of "honor" came up a time or two, and reps from several tribes made comments to the effect of "we don't need white people to honor our heritage, we can do it ourselves and do it correctly."

Well, there's always the option of dropping all references to Native Americans, including "Fighting Illini" and "Illini," which are ineluctably the name of a group of Native Americans so of course hostile and abusive. (If we are going to be consistent "Illinois" has to go as well). The songs "Illinois Loyalty," "Oksee-wow-wow", "March of the Illini" (from the Three-in-One) need to go as well.

I'm still partial to the Winged Hussars, which certainly would not be offensive to Polish-Americans or Poles, and would certainly be the opportunity to have a dramatic pregame ceremony, similar to the Seminoles but with a white guy in white guy regalia, and would have the advantage of being related to a culture that gave us Marie Curie and Copernicus, plus literature and music (Chopin and a host of others). And the Winged Hussars, in their era, were undefeated, certainly something we could be excited about. So let's hear it for a white guy so no one will be offended.

The Winged Hussars

 

[BWBW]

 

[LouDou]

I went to the game Saturday at Purdue. What I saw there, as compared to what I now see at Illinois, was really enlightening, and quite frankly, sad.

Three things:

1) The history and tradition of Illinois football has been destroyed by the cowardice of the University.

2) The current composition of the student body, created by the greed of the University's administration, has, if not ruined, severely impaired, the spirit of the student body participation and enthusiasm for football.

3) The architectural/remodeling changes thus far to the football stadium have detracted from having a home field advantage rather than enhanced any advantage we should be enjoying.

 

[texillwek]

I went to the game Saturday at Purdue. What I saw there, as compared to what I now see at Illinois, was really enlightening, and quite frankly, sad.

Three things:

1) The history and tradition of Illinois football has been destroyed by the cowardice of the University.

2) The current composition of the student body, created by the greed of the University's administration, has, if not ruined, severely impaired, the spirit of the student body participation and enthusiasm for football.

3) The architectural/remodeling changes thus far to the football stadium have detracted from having a home field advantage rather than enhanced any advantage we should be enjoying.

Could you expound on #2? I do not understand.

 

[WeWillWhen]

Could you expound on #2? I do not understand.

 

[Illini2010-11]

I went to the game Saturday at Purdue. What I saw there, as compared to what I now see at Illinois, was really enlightening, and quite frankly, sad.

Three things:

1) The history and tradition of Illinois football has been destroyed by the cowardice of the University.

2) The current composition of the student body, created by the greed of the University's administration, has, if not ruined, severely impaired, the spirit of the student body participation and enthusiasm for football.

3) The architectural/remodeling changes thus far to the football stadium have detracted from having a home field advantage rather than enhanced any advantage we should be enjoying.

1) What cowardice exactly? The removal of the chief and war chant does not impact the future or tradition of the actual football team.

2) As stated above...what? Because students are more diverse today??? There are still over 55,000 undergrad and grad students, surely there are opportunities to get them engaged and attend, no matter the composition of the student body.

3) We can have the best designed stadium, but you still need fans to attend and know when to get loud. This has been an issue for quite some time. I agree that the past remodel has not been the best for creating a home field advantage from a noise perspective, but if we had a more robust, engaged fan base at the game, this would be less of an issue.

Seems to me the biggest issue is getting fans attending and engaged. Winning will cure some of that, but the key will always be somehow getting students to attend and making the gameday experience optimal for alumni to make the trip down with families. Progress is being slowly made with regard to the gameday experience. But decades of irrelevancy have caused a fanbase to be very bandwagon on good years. This is why the next few years of on-field performance are so important. This year feels like a couple steps back, unfortunately. However, there are still games to be played, and I hope this team shows some fire and passion the next few weeks.

 

[sbillini]

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

Could you expound on #2? I do not understand.

You likely do, but I'll say it clearly for you

the admin decided 25-30 years years ago to chase the tuition $$$ that foreign students (mostly STEM) from Asia bring
this is nothing personal against the foreign students
but we are the midwest version of Cal and to a lesser extent, UCLA
these foreign students may enhance the UI's worlwide academic resume, but those students do little with regards to in stadium enthusiasm at football or basketball games .

The school student body is a MUCH DIFFERENT demographic than it was in 1980
some will say better, some will say worse.

 

[Battle89]

I should just keep quiet and eat my popcorn, but I see both sides. Hoping the question reflected real curiosity and not just a desire to stir up trouble.

The premise is that students who did not grow up around American football will be less inclined to watch it (on average), and harder to engage. I find this plausible, I am not fan of cricket but had I grown up in India I probably would be. Your mileage may vary.

Bolstering this premise is the fact that Illinois has for many years been one of the top schools for foreign-born students. I believe we are second to USC in percentage. In 2017, we had 22.6% foreign-born (source: IL Int'l Student and Scholar Services, below left) and the most recent class has 22.2% (source: IL Division of Mgmt Information, below right). These students pay the full 'rack rate' in many cases, and make the university more profit than an in-state student.

The other side, however, would be that these foreign-born students have been largely additive. Even though there are more than in the past, the number of 'domestic' kids who did grow up with some degree of American football awareness has grown even more, in absolute numbers (though not in %, granted).

My senior year (got to pick some starting point) vs. this year show the following (same source as above right):

So yes, the percentage of foreign-born students, who may have less interest in American football, has tripled since I was in school. However there are 10K more kids on campus who theoretically should be easier to engage.

There's another whole discussion on generational interest, but I need to get back to work.

 

[1970 John]

I know that everyone attending a football game should be going simply for the football game. We read that all the time here. None of this other stuff matters, right? Yeah, well, how many people are on this forum? Not enough to fill hte stadium, I'll betcha.

There has to be more, and what we have now is...really nothing. We've had an identity since 1874 as Illini. That's when the student newspaper The Student changed it's name to The Illini. For 150 years--one hundred and fifty years--we have been Illini. We have direct lineage to those first students at the University of Illinois. That is our heritage.

And there's no question what "Illini" means. It means the same thing as Seminole does to Florida State University. I cannot understand the passion of those who want to deny that to us. Follow the money is true. Jay Rosenstien is a charlatan. He's said that his career has been defined by his "documentary." If that were discredited in anyway, his career is meaningless. Worse than, actually. Even as it is, he has been at the university for...decades...and he's still only an associate professor. His own colleages in his own department have not put him forward to be a full professor. And there are more out there whose positions and reputations are foundationed upon "hostile and abusive," which I've not had anyone explain those adequately to me.

I apologize for bringing up Chief Illiniwek, but he is the heart of this university's identity and the 5000 lb gorilla in the stadium. All the stuff that the Athletic Department is doing to "improve the gameday experience" is just nibbling around the edges. Look, the standings of the conference is a zero sum game. Not everyone can be Number One. You can't rely on being Number One to have school spirit. After all, some poor school is going to be Number 18 in a couple of years.

Purdue has its identity. They a true blue collar school, at least in spirit. They were derogatorily called "boilermakers"--a step above blacksmiths--but they embraced it and lucky them, no one take it away. On the other hand, look at a school like Chattanooga. Go find the mascot story there. It has changed like a revolving door. The University of Denver has a situation similar to Illinois, though their white mascot was banished because he was white. And that's an ongoing story.

I'm rambling here and I need to get to the point, although everyone no doubt knows, or has a pretty good idea, what it is. We have to, as the saying goes, embrace the suck. We are who we are. We can't change our heart. It can only be eliminated. And it has been. However, we need to find a way to reclaim that. We can reshape it.

I have a proposal but not the time or the place here.

But the fact is, you can't have spirit without the spirit.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

Fandom sounds just absolutely miserable for some of you, you should find something to do with your spare time that actually makes you happy.

 

[Point-Illinois]

I should just keep quiet and eat my popcorn, but I see both sides. Hoping the question reflected real curiosity and not just a desire to stir up trouble.

The premise is that students who did not grow up around American football will be less inclined to watch it (on average), and harder to engage. I find this plausible, I am not fan of cricket but had I grown up in India I probably would be. Your mileage may vary.

Bolstering this premise is the fact that Illinois has for many years been one of the top schools for foreign-born students. I believe we are second to USC in percentage. In 2017, we had 22.6% foreign-born (source: IL Int'l Student and Scholar Services, below left) and the most recent class has 22.2% (source: IL Division of Mgmt Information, below right). These students pay the full 'rack rate' in many cases, and make the university more profit than an in-state student.

View attachment 28302 View attachment 28304

The other side, however, would be that these foreign-born students have been largely additive. Even though there are more than in the past, the number of 'domestic' kids who did grow up with some degree of American football awareness has grown even more, in absolute numbers (though not in %, granted).

My senior year (got to pick some starting point) vs. this year show the following (same source as above right):

View attachment 28305

So yes, the percentage of foreign-born students, who may have less interest in American football, has tripled since I was in school. However there are 10K more kids on campus who theoretically should be easier to engage.

There's another whole discussion on generational interest, but I need to get back to work.

I don’t know the veracity of your sources (they seem legit) but if this is all true, I just want to say well done.

What a great, logical, and non-inflammatory post that used facts to drive discussion on both sides of the argument.

Like, truly, bravo.

 

[Battle89]

I don’t know the veracity of your sources (they seem legit) but if this is all true, I just want to say well done.

What a great, logical, and non-inflammatory post that used facts to drive discussion on both sides of the argument.

Like, truly, bravo.

Thanks very much! All legit sources straight from the university. That Division of Mgmt Info page slices and dices the demographics of the student bodies in a hundred ways.

 

[texillwek]

I was genuinely curious. Thank you for the clarity, @Mr. Tibbs, and the thoughtful response, @Battle89

 

[Toews]

The name Illini was more tied to the university and its students in the early days rather than Native American imagery. As a younger student the Chief means nothing to me. What does however, is the campus and the buildings. That's why I propose the new mascot be Alma. I'm a great designer as you can see.

 

[Illiniguy74]

Are there really kids clamoring for a mascot?

I honestly can't relate. I grew up and followed the Cubs so not having a mascot was the norm (and I personally didn't care as I was more interested in the players/game).

To that point, most of the kids now don't have any connection to a mascot at U of I... Do they even know the difference or care about it?

The University of Illinois has never had a mascot. We had a symbol. Our administration was too weak kneed or lacked the vision to effectively negotiate a settlement that would benefit the real interests of Chief supporters and Native American descendants. The small but highly vocal anti-Chief crowd ruled the day through hyperbole and intimidation. No tangible benefits were achieved that would advance the economic prospects of Native Americans living today. The Chief is gone. End of story.

 

[Gary J]

With football like this, we need a mascot. We need the kingfisher.

 

[BWBW]

 

[Mr. Tibbs]

this is as depressed about Illini football , given the expectations we had , as I have ever been

it’s not the losing , I can deal with that , it’s how we are doing it , week after week .

truly sad and totally unexpected for a BB coached team .

our offense , overall , is pathetic .
it’s just embarrassing .
I have the nicest wife and the best dog , and at halftime I wanted to yell at her and kick my dog
I stopped watching after the 3rd qtr when it was obvious nothing was gonna change .

it’s just inconceivable this type of play is happening to us once again .

Is the Chief curse legit ?

 

[Gary J]

Yes, I do believe the chief controversaru hurt recruiting years ago. But not now.

However, with football going badly, and no true point guard on the basketball team, women’s basketball is the bright spot.

Bring on the Kingfisher. It will entertain the young ones.

 

[SKane]

I would vote for any of the following as the new symbol; 1) A Red Grange look-alike in time-appropriate uniform, 2) A Dick Butkus look-alike in time-appropriate uniform, 3) a pioneer circa 1820 with a long rifle, 4) Abe Lincoln with an axe, or 5) a World War I GI with a Springfield M1903 rifle.

I don't want some stupid animal mascot.

 

[DeonThomas]

The votes have been cast. Here's your winner!

 

[Captain 14]

How about holograms of Grange and Butkus showing up on the Memorial Stadium turf. We have the technology.....who needs a mascot when you have true legends.

 

[chudaman]

How about holograms of Grange and Butkus showing up on the Memorial Stadium turf. We have the technology.....who needs a mascot when you have true legends.

Go Butkusers Go!

 

[Battle89]

Go Butkusers Go!

As long as our opponents don't start referring to us as the Red D!cks...