TSJ Thread

[skyIdub]

Feels like we should be given bonus points for mostly staying on track here in that case

Hell over at the "Former Illini in College Hoops" thread there's "IANAL" talk.

Now, I am not a lawyer, but that thread is headed straight for the gutter!

 

[IlliniCaboose]

Taking a second to imagine this happening to a player on a rival team. I grew up in Wisconsin and hate them the most so let's use them as the example. A Wisky player is charged with rape and sexual battery. The average fan of an opposing team won't even look into the details, they'll just imagine the worst case scenario that is associated with those terms. Probably unfairly I know what my opinion of that player, who I probably already hated, would be in that case.
Now say the Wisconsin administration has a policy in place that they could stay on the team if they plead guilty to a non sexually related assault charge. From the outside most people would think "Oh, he still raped someone, he just has a good lawyer. Wisconsin is letting a scumbag rapist play for them"
Once a sexual charge is associated with someone, if they plead guilty to ANYTHING, the court of public opinion will always assume they are still guilty of a sex crime regardless.
Even if the charges are dropped when the season is still going on (A full acquittal and or exoneration would never happen in season so no need to even talk about that as it relates to this year) I still fear most other fans and media will still be merciless. Now whether those in charge of making the decision on re-instatement would take that into account as it relates to the U of I's reputation, I have no idea.

 

[BryceHopkins]

Yes, it is possible the DA drops the charges, or just the felony higher charge. Though her track record doesn’t give me hope. (see https://amp.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/melinda-henneberger/article283421963.html)

Honestly the only way I see this going away quickly is if the victim stops participating (see Patrick mahomes’ brother yesterday).

In the end the judge only has to find probable cause at the preliminary hearing. And as long as the victim is cooperating, I can’t see how that won’t happen.

Would it be your opinion then that without a cooperating witness, the judge would likely find there to be no PC?

Also, would it be unusual (almost unheard of) for a DA to attempt to prosecute a case without a cooperating witness nor any real physical evidence?

 

[blueviking04]

Thank you a little bit of sanity

 

[blueviking04]

If you think that if the panel puts the odds that he is guilty of these charges at 49% that they should send him back on the court that is fine. I am telling you it is not going to happen.

Is that what you would want to happen?

I think based on everything we have heard there is good reason to be skeptical and keep an open mind. You can not send a player back on the court with this hanging over his head though. For the best interest of the player, the accuser and the U of I this needs to resolved legally. Charges need to be dropped or a plea deal reached. I will eat my words if I am wrong but I can’t see it.

Listen, did Terrence play like a guy having charges hanging over him and this situation hanging over him for the last three months? The answer is absolutely not. He probably thought this thing was going away, but then you have DAs with vendettas.

 

[1970 John]

Zero tolerance policy means dismissal

And dismissal means lawsuits. https://apnews.com/article/yale-rap...xual-assault-1d74bbe89517db23c49a4a098186bd89

This is from an incident in 2015. This is how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. https://www.reuters.com/legal/forme...-over-rape-accusation-can-proceed-2023-10-25/

Here's the accused/acquitted's X page: https://twitter.com/saif__khan?lang=en

The university is not immune in "zero tolerance" cases. This case in still in motion and I/we don't know how it will turn out, but if the university takes actions that harm TJ, it had better be damned sure it's right.

 

[blueviking04]

I definitely didn’t see it that way. I saw it as zero tolerance for sexual assault, we tried getting ahead of this but authorities would not give us any information, TSJ has been forthcoming and we support him but we will let the legal process play out given severity of the charges.

I believe you’re wrong I believe that Josh has probably seen a lot of other athletes be accused of something that didn’t turn out to be and again I think NIL plays into the situation

 

[blueviking04]

could it be First Appearances 1-18 3pm?

Bingo

 

[04-05]

Would it be your opinion then that without a cooperating witness, the judge would likely find there to be no PC?

Also, would it be unusual (almost unheard of) for a DA to attempt to prosecute a case without a cooperating witness nor any real physical evidence?

I should note that preliminary hearings in Kansas must be held within 14 days of the initial appearance. so I don’t anticipate it happening on the 18th.

The prosecutor would call witnesses at the preliminary hearing. If no witness appears to testify in support of the prosecutor’s case, the judge could still find that probable cause exists or he/she could dismiss the case. But again probable cause is a very low hurdle.

In the mahomes case for example the charges weren’t dropped until 11 months after the alleged incident. But it’s not clear when the victim announced she would not testify. Even if this victim states rather soon that she won’t testify, the DA could still drag it out.

 

[Idea Gardener]

I don't get the point of talking about how other fanbases won't care about Shannon's exoneration (if it happens).

If it's inevitable (to an extent) and it doesn't change how all parties navigate this situation, then it really makes no difference, and doesn't matter.

I just don't get the point of paying attention to that, let alone dwelling on it.

 

[fuddrules]

I just don't get the point of paying attention to that, let alone dwelling on it.

You're not the only one. I'd be more worried about the amount of fiber in my diet than what the Maryland Turtle Hissers or Purdue Rail Bangers sections said about it. That's a big fat Who Cares.

 

[Snoopy]

Three other B1G schools have had national news level sex scandals in the relatively recent past. All were handled more poorly than Illinois has handled TSJ's case to date. The schools all survived, and if they suffered much in reputation damage and opposing fan heckling I don't see it. Maybe on message boards a snide comment is still posted or off color comments made among friends in a sports bar while the other team is playing.

Illinois should do the right thing for the alleged victim and TSJ and not get caught up in what ifs about what others might think. Attention to whatever Illinois does will very quickly fade as everyone turns their focus on the next story. See NW football.

 

[illini55]

Dropped out of law school, so nope. Mostly interested in hearing what the lawyers have to say

I don't know, when I used to plead out a client for a moving violation when a moving violation would ruin his/her record, we used the "noisy muffler" section of the law. Think that would fly? /s

 

[Grandpa]

ALLEGED victim. Yes I yelled. It's all preliminary.

 

[mrh vet]

Used that one myself back in the old days but I do not think that would fly here. Simple assault would. Surprised Kansas has not done away with assault. Only requires a potential action and the victim believing you have the ability to carry it out.

 

[the national]

I don't know, when I used to plead out a client for a moving violation when a moving violation would ruin his/her record, we used the "noisy muffler" section of the law. Think that would fly? /s

How noisy are we talking here?

 

[Krombopulos_Michael]

So I know LvilleILL mentioned in a previous thread “something is in the works” - is it something in the works internally at the university or does it pertain to what’s happening in Lawrence specifically that could lead to him being reinstated (not sure if any of it can be divulged at all)

 

[My2Cents]

Part of me wonders if Illinois will wait to reinstate him on the 12th of January. The day after Michigan St. game. Just to avoid the optics of bringing him back for a big game and blah blah blah. Maybe the board/committee already knows, Josh knows, as does Brad. Shrugs, we shall see but that is my guess, heading into a part of the schedule the team would win four or five games in a row without him. Yes, I realize the legal issues may not be publicly "settled" by that date.

 

[mikeyo]

So I know LvilleILL mentioned in a previous thread “something is in the works” - is it something in the works internally at the university or does it pertain to what’s happening in Lawrence specifically that could lead to him being reinstated (not sure if any of it can be divulged at all)

yes

 

[Krombopulos_Michael]

yes

 

[Dragons89]

So I know LvilleILL mentioned in a previous thread “something is in the works” - is it something in the works internally at the university or does it pertain to what’s happening in Lawrence specifically that could lead to him being reinstated (not sure if any of it can be divulged at all)

If something is going to happen soon with the court, the school will wait to do anything. There is no reason to jeopardize a potential deal and or charges being dropped by reinstating TSJ beforehand. There is a lot of talk about zero tolerance and other past cases. I deal with a lot of this stuff professionally and you cannot compare cases as much as you would like. The evidence of this case and this case alone will dictate the path. Principles of process and procedures are about all that will be similar. This is very stressful for all involved on both sides and I pray for a fair outcome no matter whether we like it or not.

 

[oskeewowwowboomtime]

There has to be a deal in place. I have been hard on the DA but do have to back off that some. I have heard many posts referencing corruption. That is all speculation, and this thread has had several hundred pages of that.

I do not believe there is corruption here. Corruption requires a motive and it does not have to be financial. Mike Nifong ran with a bogus prosecution to appeal to a certain constituency he wanted to court for political purposes. He was even stupid enough to admit it, at least the motivation part. Here the DA ran on a platform largely the existing DA was not doing enough on sexual crimes prosecution. Ok, good for her. But Nifong put his case on front street. Plenty of TV, press conferences and microphones. That did not happen here. Look how Illinois learned of the charges. He was under investigation, they knew he had a lawyer, he gave an interview, so they decide to press charges they exercise some professional courtesy and let his attorney know and tell him arrange to surrender so we do not have to extradite. All low key. No soapbox and the DA should actually be applauded for that.

No, I think what you have is someone who might not be the most grounded individual out there, certainly inexperienced, possible competence issues with a fair sized ego thrown in. Not necessarily good. With corruption you normally can eventually figure out where the individual is coming from. I think we have a wild card.

The best shot for an early resolution here is a deal. Insiders have hinted they expect him back. They have even intimated a deal is in the works. I am going to take them at their word. But this is no ordinary deal and it is going to take time to hash it out.

It is almost impossible to bring a state court action for a wrongful prosecution. Too much immunity and protection at the state level, deserved are not. But as all attorneys and likely some others know there is something called 1983 out there. Ask Mike Nifong and Durham County, it was a nightmare. Now Shannon's lawyer may think he has a great 1983 case and can get a gazillion dollars from Douglas County. Some have mentioned an action against the accuser. Forget that, it might be dischargeable and even if not, I doubt the accuser is Warren Buffet. You do not spend the rest of your life chasing a pittance. 1983 is the elephant in the room. Problem is, Douglas County says go ahead and try the case, get your not guilty verdict and file your 1983 case and we will see you in 5 years. Meantime there is no way they dismiss the charges. Shannon could be retired by the time that is resolved.

But you better believe Douglas County does not want a 1983 knock at the door and someone is smart enough to realize that. I think everyone is looking for an out here. This was a flawed prosecution from day one and at this point, I think the powers that be are also smart enough to realize that. Plead to sexual battery as a misdemeanor? Not workable. Zero tolerance policy plus any time you plead guilty you have to establish a factual basis for the plea on the record. So Shannon has to testify to some sexual misdemeanor. No. Or the prosecutor can establish the factual basis and so can the defense attorney but Shannon has to go on record agreeing to it.

So plead guilty to some innocuous non-sexual misdemeanor should satisfy everyone. Of course you to find a factual basis for that too. Public intox? Disorderly conduct? Where there is a will there is a way.

Albert Wilson - National Registry of Exoneration
How about Criminal Case Mediation and Restorative Justice? DA Valdez is big on that. Take a look at the attached detailed summary of the "sexual assault and rape by force of fear" 2017 case involving the outrageous wrongful criminal prosecution of Albert Wilson, a 20 year old Black University of Kansas student which also took place in Douglas County, Kansas which DA Valdez finally dismissed in December of 2021. The above National Registry of Exoneration website contains the full story of an incredibly flawed prosecution that should make all of us concerned for TSJ and it is a must read for any attorney or layperson trying to predict what DA Valdez will do in this case because although she was not involved in the initial prosecution and wrongful conviction that was ultimately thrown out after Mr. Wilson spent over two years in jail/prison, her office did still try to make him take a plea deal rather than face being retried after his initial conviction was thrown out in March of 2021 by which time Ms. Valdez was now the DA. Here is the entire text of DA Valdez Statement following dismissal of the charges:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHP1vFjWQAE40Cu?format=jpg&name=medium

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHP1vFkXoAIuQNc?format=jpg&name=medium

In April 2022, Wilson filed a claim against the state of Kansas, seeking compensation under the state's wrongful conviction statute.

 

[Dan]

Almost game time, thread's closed.