TSJ Thread

#26      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
I believe in the documents for this case, the alleged victim claimed she had "given" consent for the alleged perpetrator to be touching her buttocks
Just FWIW, that is not what the victim said.


The facts as alleged are that he pulled her toward him and reached under her dress, inserting his finger inside her essentially immediately, sort of all in one motion. This is not a "we were being consensually intimate then I wanted to stop" type of case, at least not as alleged by the victim.

Lack of consent and "victim overcome by force or fear" are both elements to both rape and aggravated sexual assault per the Kansas statute, and for me the facts of the case turn more on the latter than the former.

It's a very unusual case, these are not the typical circumstances of a sex crimes investigation. Hard cases make bad law, as they say.
 
#27      
Just FWIW, that is not what the victim said.


The facts as alleged are that he pulled her toward him and reached under her dress, inserting his finger inside her essentially immediately, sort of all in one motion. This is not a "we were being consensually intimate then I wanted to stop" type of case, at least not as alleged by the victim.

Lack of consent and "victim overcome by force or fear" are both elements to both rape and aggravated sexual assault per the Kansas statute, and for me the facts of the case turn more on the latter than the former.

It's a very unusual case, these are not the typical circumstances of a sex crimes investigation. Hard cases make bad law, as they say.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It was probably just someone using bad paraphrasing, but I remember the concept of retracting consent thrown around in the earlier TSJ threads. And I do not see how you can have a law protecting someone who decides after the fact that they wish they hadn't given consent and thus someone should be charged as a felon.
 
#29      

JFGsCoffeeMug

BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
Don't think it's dumb. If I had to guess, I think this is probably enough for him to fall out of the first round, and maybe even go undrafted.
 
#31      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It was probably just someone using bad paraphrasing, but I remember the concept of retracting consent thrown around in the earlier TSJ threads.
There was some rumor mill stuff early on that the victim thought he was someone else and only decided to press charges once she knew who it was, but I think that's been more or less debunked at this point.

Something happened to this girl in that bar that she took immediate umbrage to. Of that there seems to be no doubt.

So.. given the court case is ongoing, will TSJ get selected in the draft?

Edit: maybe this is a dumb question
He won't be selected is my guess.
I just can't see an NBA team being willing to select a player with a rapidly pending rape trial.

The silver lining is that going undrafted and then being found not guilty would offer TSJ his pick of teams and the opportunity to sign a contract with shorter team control and quicker access to free agency than rookies typically have, particularly valuable given his age.
 
#32      
There was some rumor mill stuff early on that the victim thought he was someone else and only decided to press charges once she knew who it was, but I think that's been more or less debunked at this point.

Something happened to this girl in that bar that she took immediate umbrage to. Of that there seems to be no doubt.



I just can't see an NBA team being willing to select a player with a rapidly pending rape trial.

The silver lining is that going undrafted and then being found not guilty would offer TSJ his pick of teams and the opportunity to sign a contract with shorter team control and quicker access to free agency than rookies typically have, particularly valuable given his age.
Trial set for June 10th.

2 1/2 weeks before the draft.

Go Illini
 
#34      
Good for Terence, assuming the apparent lack of evidence for his guilt leads to his acquittal. With that said, I know when I am in a stressful situation (obviously nowhere near this stressful!), I always have conflicting thoughts about prolonging it or getting the resolution over with. On one hand, the agony of waiting in uncertainty has to be killing Terence. On the other, once you start the trial, the (even-if-unlikely) possibility of a guilty verdict looms near.

I'll be thinking of the guy come June!
 
#35      
Look at the lack of traffic on this thread now that the season is over. In December, this was 10 pages long...in an hour. The fans were loud and running to his defense and we're demanding justice.

Just goes to show the "business" side of things. To many(not all) of the fans...it's out of sight and out of mind. We rode him to a Big 10 Tournament Championship and then on an Elite 8 run. He did his job and that's it. Now, it'll be a passing glance on social media.

This is a great example of why these guys should be getting their money and running with it.

For those commenting and showing support regardless of it being the off-season... that's loyalty.
 
#38      

LadyLoyalty

Indian Wells, CA
IANAL - Wondering why the charge in the alternative was upgraded from a misdemeanor to a felony? That does not sound like a case that is going to go away any time soon. Hoping that TJ prevails in this preliminary hearing and the judge kicks the case. Still haven't heard of any solid evidence to support the charge. It goes without saying, but if this lingers, it is going to cost him millions....
I hope the truth prevails
 
#39      
Ah, thanks for the clarification. It was probably just someone using bad paraphrasing, but I remember the concept of retracting consent thrown around in the earlier TSJ threads. And I do not see how you can have a law protecting someone who decides after the fact that they wish they hadn't given consent and thus someone should be charged as a felon.
You might also be remembering that the accuser "confirmed she felt like the touching of her buttocks over her skirt was ok with her but it was not ok with her when Terrance placed his hand under her skirt. [The accuser] stated she was not ok with Terrance placing his finger inside her [frontal private parts]"

And I think you ask a reasonable question. IANAL, but my take is this: to the extent the woman is a stranger, the man should be that much more careful to ensure consent along the way. At the very least, he should ensure the woman has the time, ability (sobriety, etc), and "comfort level" to express lack of consent, although even then there's some risk of misreading the situation.

In my opinion, the alleged encounter progressed way too quickly (especially with the man holding her against him), so she didn't seem to have time to express a lack of consent before things went way too far. TSJ will need reasonable doubt that it wasn't him, or that the encounter was very different from her description, or that it didn't happen at all.
 
#40      

illini55

The Villages, FL
Please delete if necessary, but I have avoided asking this "Elephant in the Room" question for a while now. However, with a new son who recently turned 4 months old ... I frankly want to prepare him for the world he will grow up in. And, of COURSE, IANAL! :) With that said, here is my question that I truly am trying to ask in the most respectful and nuanced way possible...

Am I to understand that in the eyes of this Kansas law, a man could have "unspoken consent" to be touching a woman sexually up until a point where she can determine that a successive "next sexual act" was not consensual and have grounds to allege sexual assault? Again, not talking "morally" here ... just legally. I believe in the documents for this case, the alleged victim claimed she had "given" consent for the alleged perpetrator to be touching her buttocks and then the alleged perpetrator apparently interpreted their sexual-in-nature interaction up to that point to be of a nature that he could touch her frontal private parts. And because she was only okay with the former and not the latter, this constituted sexual assault.

I mean, can we be real for a second here? If beginning to put your hands down the front of a woman's pants without formal verbal consent is potentially sexual assault, the vast majority of sexual interaction between men and women the age of TSJ could be considered potential "rape" if the woman retracts consent after the man takes it to that next step. Is a male in that situation just simply and unequivocally risking a VERY dicey situation if he does not obtain verbal consent first? And what if the woman gives verbal consent but later decides she was not okay with it? Is that a "He Said, She Said" case even though his DNA WILL be found? Did he need it in writing??

I know the situation described would be INCREDIBLY rare, and in most cases it is clear if two people are engaging in consensual sexual acts. Maybe the risk is just with a stranger? Because I can guarantee you that most guys I know do not stop and ask, haha. And I have never considered "going with the flow" of the sexual interaction to really be "RAPE." I have avoided asking this to not appear totally delusional or disrespectful toward the sensitivity of the case, but man ... I guess I really don't understand where the legal line here is drawn. Any thoughtful and respectful responses are REALLY appreciated, so thank you!

EDIT: I also want to be VERY CLEAR that I get that the basic objective of these laws is to stop an unambiguously bad thing - for someone to perform a sexual act toward a woman that she did not want. And there should absolutely be rigid laws to stop that. I merely want to understand what the legal expectation of men would be to prevent this type of legal trouble in the rare circumstance where there is a disconnect between parties.
IAAL. Whatever you may think of the law in this case, EVERY lawsuit has an element of “he said, she said.” That is called “testimony,” and no matter how credible or incredible it may be, (with a few exceptions, hearsay etc.) the jury hears it. In theory, cross exam discloses the liars, but of course, NOT always. There are prisons all over the country containing defendants who were telling the truth, but simply were not believed. The jury will be impaneled with 12 citizens who bring their own biases to the jury room, and as we all know, those biases can adversely color the perception of the truth. Sometimes, injustice results. No matter who prevails here, let’s hope that the actual truth can be determined. Not a perfect system, but still, a pretty good one when compared to other countries.
 
#41      
This shows that you shouldn't believe his lawyer's spin about not being surprised. There is no reason to have your client testify in a preliminary hearing unless you're actually trying to convince the judge to dismiss.
I don't think those 2 things are mutually exclusive. Can try and also not be surprised. I'd think you are doing your client a disservice if there's a remote chance of dismissal and you don't go for it.
 
#43      
I don't think those 2 things are mutually exclusive. Can try and also not be surprised. I'd think you are doing your client a disservice if there's a remote chance of dismissal and you don't go for it.
Don't ever play db with your perspective. If there's a remote possibility you could get the interception, you'll go for it ... and give up the touchdown most of the time. The cost of not being successful has to be factored in.
 
#44      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
Clearly IANAL - can a trial have a predetermined length of time? How is it guaranteed that both sides have enough time to go over all of the evidence, question witnesses, conduct cross examinations etc?
It's a matter of scheduling the judge and courtroom.

The trial takes how long it takes, and if it goes longer than 3 days they will just reschedule other matters, but this means they are blocking 3 days off with nothing else scheduled for the trial.

Generally, lots of different cases get scheduled for trials on the same day(s), the idea being that there are frequently plea bargain deals finalized on trial day, or one of the parties wants to delay for some reason, so scheduling multiple at the same time maximizes the possibility that some trial will occupy that space.

Generally speaking I would say the chances of the trial actually occurring on the first scheduled date is relatively low, but obviously TSJ is in a unique hurry here. Still possible it gets kicked further though, especially if TSJ's defense has some reason to seek additional investigative/prep time, winning this case takes precedence over all other considerations.
 
#45      
Look at the lack of traffic on this thread now that the season is over. In December, this was 10 pages long...in an hour. The fans were loud and running to his defense and we're demanding justice.

Just goes to show the "business" side of things. To many(not all) of the fans...it's out of sight and out of mind. We rode him to a Big 10 Tournament Championship and then on an Elite 8 run. He did his job and that's it. Now, it'll be a passing glance on social media.

This is a great example of why these guys should be getting their money and running with it.

For those commenting and showing support regardless of it being the off-season... that's loyalty.
For me, I am not commenting as I am confident that he will be found not guilty . I pray I am not wrong. But you have raised and important point.
 
#46      
I just hope the truth is actually revealed. All these players deserve to be paid based on simple supply and demand. This is just a sad thing that this even occurred or didn’t occur.
 
#47      
Just FWIW, that is not what the victim said.


The facts as alleged are that he pulled her toward him and reached under her dress, inserting his finger inside her essentially immediately, sort of all in one motion. This is not a "we were being consensually intimate then I wanted to stop" type of case, at least not as alleged by the victim.

Lack of consent and "victim overcome by force or fear" are both elements to both rape and aggravated sexual assault per the Kansas statute, and for me the facts of the case turn more on the latter than the former.

It's a very unusual case, these are not the typical circumstances of a sex crimes investigation. Hard cases make bad law, as they say.
This is wrong. Mitch Gilfillian (who was at the hearing today) said that the alleged victim testified today to being "okay with the initial touching outside of her skirt".
 
#48      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
This is wrong. Mitch Gilfillian (who was at the hearing today) said that the alleged victim testified today to being "okay with the initial touching outside of her skirt".
Well this is new information from this morning's hearing, the inconsistency with what was taken down in the police report (which is minor but critical) is certainly relevant to where things proceed from here.


TSJ testified as well today, very interested to hear his side of it here, I hope these tweets continue.

EDIT: I've always assumed this was TSJ's story, and it is indeed so

 
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#49      
Clearly IANAL - can a trial have a predetermined length of time? How is it guaranteed that both sides have enough time to go over all of the evidence, question witnesses, conduct cross examinations etc?
The judge has undoubtedly asked both sides how long they expect the trial to last, in light of their planned witnesses and other evidence. With that input, the judge blocks off those days on the court's calendar. A prosecutor and I just told a judge how long we expected one of our upcoming trials to last. That's pretty simple but that's how it works.
 
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#50      
Look at the lack of traffic on this thread now that the season is over. In December, this was 10 pages long...in an hour. The fans were loud and running to his defense and we're demanding justice.

Just goes to show the "business" side of things. To many(not all) of the fans...it's out of sight and out of mind. We rode him to a Big 10 Tournament Championship and then on an Elite 8 run. He did his job and that's it. Now, it'll be a passing glance on social media.

This is a great example of why these guys should be getting their money and running with it.

For those commenting and showing support regardless of it being the off-season... that's loyalty.
I think there is still plenty of interest in this case and support for TJ. Probably aren't a lot of comments because there really isn't much to say right now. Just have to wait and let it play out in June. I continue to believe that unless the prosecution has something more to put forth, the case is extremely weak and I think TJ will be found not guilty. I guess will find out one way of another next month.