Wisconsin 78, Illinois 69 POSTGAME

I miss when watching the Illini was an essential part of my week and weekend rather than something I knew I should avoid for my mental health and general happiness. My girlfriend, in a COMPLETELY caring way, literally says stuff like, "maybe you just need a bit of a break from them!" and she's depressingly right. I have no idea what the problem is. At times, we look really good and I'm pumped for the future (I still am regardless, but come on guys!). At others, we look HORRIBLE.

Hoping there are a few surprises to carry over into next year.

GortTheRobot said:

:deadhorse: If we do not have an inside presence BIG teams are going to feast on us. Period. We can all speculate about team chemistry, BU's system, Smith's development, etc. (and I know it's part of the fun of the board), but if we had one of either Nanna Egwu or Maverick Morgan, a lot of those close games would have been W's and we would be ecstatic about our turnaround.

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Unfortunately, this is the real world, and none of them are on this team. We also don't have anything in that regard coming in.

Here in the real world, and there are issues in that locker room. Smith has no confidence in game situations, and not winning isn't the only factor at play there. Confidence has to come from the coaching staff as well.

Then people dive further into it, much further than necessary, to compare his numbers to past players. Which isn't only irrelevant, but it should also be a cause for concern considering those players built up to those final statistics, not stepped backwards into them. However, if we want to actually play with averages that do matter, then let's talk about your percentage chance of making the tournament with terrible conference play? His numbers have declined with virtually every in-league game. As have his minutes. The only thing that has increased is the moments of being totally uninspired. The kid has tremendous talent, but how's he supposed to learn to use that talent when he immediately gets the hook, and his *** chewed for trying to make a play at the rim, missing an open man, or making too risky of a pass.

Besides the lack of serviceable big men, the most glaring weakness of this team is their confidence. I'm tired of listening to Underwood talk about his past teams. If he's willing to offer comparisons to the media, then he is certainly bringing it up in practice too. The only time any of that should matter is when Whitman was looking at his resume.

I don't care about his past success, and he needs to stop too. It doesn't mean squat at this point. I mean seriously, how would you like it if you're wife was always bringing up past lovers, and talking about all of the great things they did together?

This coaching staff needs just as much improvement, if not more, than the players do. Change starts at the top.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Welp, we can officially declare the honeymoon over.

:thumb:

ILLINIWEK86 said:

Unfortunately, this is the real world, and none of them are on this team. We also don't have anything in that regard coming in.

Here in the real world, and there are issues in that locker room. Smith has no confidence in game situations, and not winning isn't the only factor at play there. Confidence has to come from the coaching staff as well.

Then people dive further into it, much further than necessary, to compare his numbers to past players. Which isn't only irrelevant, but it should also be a cause for concern considering those players built up to those final statistics, not stepped backwards into them. However, if we want to actually play with averages that do matter, then let's talk about your percentage chance of making the tournament with terrible conference play? His numbers have declined with virtually every in-league game. As have his minutes. The only thing that has increased is the moments of being totally uninspired. The kid has tremendous talent, but how's he supposed to learn to use that talent when he immediately gets the hook, and his *** chewed for trying to make a play at the rim, missing an open man, or making too risky of a pass.

Besides the lack of serviceable big men, the most glaring weakness of this team is their confidence. I'm tired of listening to Underwood talk about his past teams. If he's willing to offer comparisons to the media, then he is certainly bringing it up in practice too. The only time any of that should matter is when Whitman was looking at his resume.

I don't care about his past success, and he needs to stop too. It doesn't mean squat at this point. I mean seriously, how would you like it if you're wife was always bringing up past lovers, and talking about all of the great things they did together?

This coaching staff needs just as much improvement, if not more, than the players do. Change starts at the top.

Click to expand...

:thumb:

PtownIllini8 said:

Interesting that you failed to mention Frazier and Ebo when complaining of the lack of improvement. Also, Black shot 45% from the field last season. This year he's shooting almost 56% from the field.

Re Williams and Smith, I would note that these players all scored 6 points/game or less as freshmen: DWill, Gill, Head.

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Actually, my comment about the lack of improvement was about the team writ large.

The thing is, we can afford to see one or two guys regress or not play up to their potential. But when several do it, that becomes a team killer.

It's unfair to pin this on Mark Smith. But when Alstork and Finke and Nichols all struggle as well, we need somebody other than Frazier and Black to step up. And they're not. Period.

Finally, the comparison to other Illini greats is really misleading. Take DWill, for example. He improved tremendously over the course of the season, and even led the Big Ten in assists IIRC. DMac is also mentioned quite frequently, but people forget that in conference play, his numbers went up significantly. He scored 10+ a game in Big Ten play, and had several games in which he had 6+ assists.

Head was a pretty consistent 4/5 point scorer all year, but he was also playing behind Frank Williams, Cory Bradford, Sean Harrington, etc. He became a pretty good defender over the course of the year, and gave us great minutes off the bench. In short, he played his role very effectively. It's not Mark Smith's fault that we need him more than we needed Luther Head in 2002. But it is what it is.

Fighter of the Nightman said:

I miss when watching the Illini was an essential part of my week and weekend rather than something I knew I should avoid for my mental health and general happiness. My girlfriend, in a COMPLETELY caring way, literally says stuff like, "maybe you just need a bit of a break from them!" and she's depressingly right. I have no idea what the problem is. At times, we look really good and I'm pumped for the future (I still am regardless, but come on guys!). At others, we look HORRIBLE.

Hoping there are a few surprises to carry over into next year.

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Couldn't have said it any better. I remember up until around 2009/10 literally planning the week out to have game half - days blocked out to focus solely on basketball. Now, like you, I know I shouldn't invest the two hours to watch a game (but usually do). What's more, I have two kidss attending U of I this year who barely have interest in attending any games (one is Orange Krush btw) basketball or football for that matter. As an alum, that saddens me tremendously.

TCTORNADO said:

Therein may lie the problem. Some of these players have obviously tuned BU out. As I asked in the game thread...Underwood's sideline demeanor??

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How exactly is it obvious? Guys don't play as hard as our team is playing if they have tuned out the coach. In Weber's last year, that team tuned him out. Saying that about BU now is grasping... which there seems to be plenty of in this thread.

TCTORNADO said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Welp, we can officially declare the honeymoon over.

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You seem legitimately pleased.

Fighter of the Nightman said:

You seem legitimately pleased.

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Haha...Who doesn't like honeymoons??

Watching the game last night with my son I commented at one stretch at how good the ball was moving around for the best shot for each team. Tried to use this as a coaching point for his team I coach. Then with the game on the line Frazier decided he had to continue his magnificent play and the ball stopped moving and fell apart. Not entirely his fault as he was playing so well, and perhaps he realized he was our best chance. Its ironic because my 10th grader said the last few minutes were played like his team plays -at its worst.

I think the big issue with this board and Mark Smith is that the expectations were so high. When he signed, everyone thought he was going to take us to the Tournament. People need to realize he is a Freshman and the jury will be out on him until next year.On the other hand, Trent Frazier was an afterthought here. As for Michael Finke, he is what he always was. A serviceable bench player. The fact that he needs to play big minutes and out of position isn't his fault.

First of all Underwood needs to stop playing the pressure defense. We are not getting a high number of steals out of it, just a high number of fouls, which sends teams to the foul line much earlier than they should. With this pressure D we give up more backdoor layups and dunks than any team in the country!
Alstork, for the oldest guy on the team makes some of the dumbest mistakes. How many times is he going to commit a dumb handcheck/bump foul 35 feet or more from the basket. He needs to sit at this point and let Smith and Williams get minutes. Wins at this stage mean far less than experience for the kids who are the future.
I am not sure what kind of offense we run, because we never, except in transition situations, get open looks for any of our players. Last night Wisconsin got the open looks and made us pay. There is something not working with this offense. While I realize it takes Jordan a little more time to get his shot off, we need to be able to set him up for some shots from the perimeter, but we rarely set anyone up.
Maybe the most frustrated I have ever been as an Illini fan.

Good times.

I thought it was pretty obvious all along odds were against a fast rebuild of the program. While saying that it doesn't seem like there has been much improvement during the season. You can make the case that both Smith and Williams have regressed dramatically and this is the time of year where you hope your young players begin to break out and show significant improvement for next year. Besides Frazier most of the team is playing pretty similar or poorer than it was two months ago which has to be a concern. Significant upgrade needed in size and we have to shoot the ball much better from the perimeter to have a chance for significant improvement next year.

Monte Carlo said:

First of all Underwood needs to stop playing the pressure defense. We are not getting a high number of steals out of it, just a high number of fouls, which sends teams to the foul line much earlier than they should. With this pressure D we give up more backdoor layups and dunks than any team in the country!
Alstork, for the oldest guy on the team makes some of the dumbest mistakes. How many times is he going to commit a dumb handcheck/bump foul 35 feet or more from the basket. He needs to sit at this point and let Smith and Williams get minutes. Wins at this stage mean far less than experience for the kids who are the future.
I am not sure what kind of offense we run, because we never, except in transition situations, get open looks for any of our players. Last night Wisconsin got the open looks and made us pay. There is something not working with this offense. While I realize it takes Jordan a little more time to get his shot off, we need to be able to set him up for some shots from the perimeter, but we rarely set anyone up.
Maybe the most frustrated I have ever been as an Illini fan.

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We were 3rd in the nation in forcing turnovers leading into last night. The players we have are completely outmatched playing a straight up man as we have no interior defense at all and not much in the way of rebounding. The only surefire way for us to get a stop is to force a turnover.

Depressing...

Best I can describe this team is "shellshocked"...a combination of on-court-frustration/lack-of-confidence/culture-change-shock that is verging on depression for the guys (and coach) I imagine. There is still some fight there and they are trying hard (in spurts), but they aren't getting much payoff and that's got to be hard.

For players who were on the team last year this coach is so, so different. Go from "rah-rah, love-ya-buddy Groce" who was light on discipline, to a no-nonsense screamer with very high expectations and a short trigger for mistakes. You could say both approaches are too extreme, but being a player going from one to another has got to be rough. Expect some transfers. But how does that explain the freshman's issues? Underwood is old-school and seems to have one way of dealing with players which is harder to be successful today with for 17 year olds. Some guys need a hug and high five and others have thicker skin and can be pushed to the brink. Seem's Frazier's built in swagger is taking on the challenge, and Smith is second guessing everything. Damonte and Kipper seem to be something in between...either way the "culture" is causing problems in the locker room I sense. Can it be overcome with roster overhaul, or current kids buying in or gaining confidence? I guess time will tell.

That culture change is also tricky with the staff; BU has an entirely new staff and he's trying to get them to understand what he's doing. I don't have enough visibility there for the basketball side; but the recruiting needs to become more of a focus and we need to see some serious talent influx at a number of positions.

Secondly you look at the game plan. Heavy pressure defense this year vs. pack-the-line bend but don't break last year; another 180. The guys looked better at it earlier in the season which is hard to explain; against teams like WI that are smart and patient it really is a liability instead of a strength and I would have liked to see some flexibility there from Underwood. Same goes for the offense...I see glimpses of how his cuts might cause open layups, but they're not crisp cuts, and the pass virtually never is thrown. For a goal to score in 7 seconds, the guys need a green light and 100% confidence, and we only have one guys like that right now. We do get decent outside shots sometime, but miss so many of them, I don't get why that is other than some broken coach-player dynamic that may or may not get fixed with roster turnover.

Can BU find a bunch of tough !!! high flyers with swagger who can flourish with his coaching personality...hopefully as from what I can see with the current team the coaching demeanor & tactical strategy are not an ideal fit.

It all adds up to team that looks "shellshocked"...and if fans like us are losing patience I imagine the rank and file are already checked out which is scary given there is no relief on the football side right now either.

I think I'm "shellshocked" with Illini sports in general right now....damn.

Let's put things in Perspective

Here's a "what if" scenario:

What if the Illini offered to trade ANY of their players to any starter from the top 5 teams in the B1G. Would there be any trades? What if the same offer had been made the last 4 or 5 years. Any trades? Maybe Hill? Paul?

The point is this team (and any team Groce recruited) has little or no B1G talent. I'm sure they're nice kids and nice basketball players and might be nice to fit into a team filled with B1G players.

BU and his staff have a responsibility to make players better, but he/they can't turn an individual into a B1G player. Any win he/they get in the B1G is making chicken salad out of chicken $#!+.

Here's hoping that:
A) The BU demeanor you see on the sideline isn't the demeanor the players see 24/7
B) BU and his staff can start the process of recruiting B1G players. A few of these freshman will enjoy playing on a B1G team!

The offense has so many options, I can see where it is difficult to pick up quickly to the point you don't have to think about it. Having players in the right position to shoot should be the long term result and that seems to be more of the problem than pure shooting. It does however require confidence which is built by success. Actually our scoring was great for our shooting percentage. We finished at least second in all our games.

Black and Frazier are certainly B1G talent.

Playing poorly has become the rule not the exception for this team(I don't count the non con cupcakes in the equation). It should be just the other way around. It's not just being inconsistent, it's consistently playing poorly against any decent competition. That is what is so troubling, and it isn't just youth/inexperience because Trent is doing just fine.

I am not sure that a tough-love coach is what most really good players want. Most seventeen-year-olds would prefer Coach Groce to Coach Underwood.

Recruiting won't be easy.

SKane said:

Most seventeen-year-olds would prefer Coach Groce to Coach Underwood.

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idk if we can claim that recruiting was a forte of Groce's, after all has been said and done.

ILLINIWEK86 said:

Unfortunately, this is the real world, and none of them are on this team. We also don't have anything in that regard coming in.

Here in the real world, and there are issues in that locker room. Smith has no confidence in game situations, and not winning isn't the only factor at play there. Confidence has to come from the coaching staff as well.

Then people dive further into it, much further than necessary, to compare his numbers to past players. Which isn't only irrelevant, but it should also be a cause for concern considering those players built up to those final statistics, not stepped backwards into them. However, if we want to actually play with averages that do matter, then let's talk about your percentage chance of making the tournament with terrible conference play? His numbers have declined with virtually every in-league game. As have his minutes. The only thing that has increased is the moments of being totally uninspired. The kid has tremendous talent, but how's he supposed to learn to use that talent when he immediately gets the hook, and his *** chewed for trying to make a play at the rim, missing an open man, or making too risky of a pass.

Besides the lack of serviceable big men, the most glaring weakness of this team is their confidence. I'm tired of listening to Underwood talk about his past teams. If he's willing to offer comparisons to the media, then he is certainly bringing it up in practice too. The only time any of that should matter is when Whitman was looking at his resume.

I don't care about his past success, and he needs to stop too. It doesn't mean squat at this point. I mean seriously, how would you like it if you're wife was always bringing up past lovers, and talking about all of the great things they did together?

This coaching staff needs just as much improvement, if not more, than the players do. Change starts at the top.

Click to expand...

While I don't disagree with everything you said, this isn't the real world, it's speculation and supposition.

Serious question, and perhaps you actually know something others don't, how do you know there is dissent in the locker room?

Lastly, it sounds, and you may not mean it to, that you are saying we might need to think of replacing the coaching staff after less than one season. If you mean some of the assistants, I may agree, but not the head coach, not this quickly.

SKane said:

I am not sure that a tough-love coach is what most really good players want. Most seventeen-year-olds would prefer Coach Groce to Coach Underwood.

Recruiting won't be easy.

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Seems to be working for Mike Krzyzewski and John Calipari. Somebody better tell them they need to soften up.

Coach Underwood is exactly what we need as a head coach....his past record indicates he knows what he is doing...when the players realize that then this will get turned around....and with recruiting some B1G ready players also....

I'm willing to give him all the time he needs to restore us back to prominence...after the last 2 coaches BU is a breath of fresh air...