Wisconsin 95, Illinois 74 Postgame

Status
Not open for further replies.
#401      
This is the problem. We don't run an offense. Last year when Shannon drove, he was so dang good, and strong, he'd score. KJ doesn't have the strength Shannon does and can't finish as well.

Now if we had people cutting to the basket to fill when defenders slide over to stop KJ, then you give him options to pass to instead of being stuck in the paint.
But what is perhaps the most perplexing… at times this season: WE HAVE run legit, specific plays and offense. What happened to executing that stuff? The Princeton actions with the blur screens that we’ve done well or the Spain action after a ball screen…where have those kinds of things even, gone of late?

The defense was rated much higher than we could have ever anticipated at one point. Look at it now…Yes we’ve got depleted manpower…but that skid started before guys starting going down.
 
#402      
He's not wrong. Over the summer, just before the Olympics, he was invited to participate and he did. He did more than hold his own. Many of the NBA'ers, notably LBJ.....were extremely outspoken about him.

He said he 'lit up' NBA players. Different than 'holding his own'. But, anyhow, the NBA hype machine has also brought us generational talents the likes of Ben Simmons, Michael Olowokandi, Anthony Bennett, Kwame Brown, Sam Bowie, et al. He just doesn't have the offensive package of a Doncic/Durant/LBJ/Tatum/SGA/Edwards and doesn't have the size to make up for that like Giannis/Wemby.

While this sidebar is fun, I'm still waiting for someone to disprove my original assertion that you can win in 2025 with a young roster.
 
Last edited:
#403      
I think people mistake "First Round/Lottery Pick" as "Ready on Day 1."

A lot of the players drafted in those spots are forced to play Day 1 because they're going to bottom-dwelling teams, but the draft is about potential. KJ, Will, and Tomi all have the potential, and that's what front offices will draft on. They'll trust that their coaches and the players having all their focus on basketball instead of splitting it between school and basketball will solve their ills.
Exactly correct. Lottery picks almost always play big minutes on day 1, because they were selected by one of the worst teams from the year before (and they are getting paid relatively high dollars compared to peers in the draft). They are allowed to develop and "fail" playing big minutes. Guys selected later in the first round tend to be selected by higher-performing teams. That allows them to get equated to the new team's system --one of the reasons why TSJ is in such a good position where he was drafted (even though he should have arguably gone higher in the draft).
 
#404      
Maybe Brad needs to hire an epidemiologist to the staff
Sounds like someone needs to put a bug in Brad's ear...or maybe not since so much is going around already!
 
#405      
I think people mistake "First Round/Lottery Pick" as "Ready on Day 1."

A lot of the players drafted in those spots are forced to play Day 1 because they're going to bottom-dwelling teams, but the draft is about potential. KJ, Will, and Tomi all have the potential, and that's what front offices will draft on. They'll trust that their coaches and the players having all their focus on basketball instead of splitting it between school and basketball will solve their ills.
You don't draft a lottery pick on potential. You draft guys with potential and development needs in the second round. Is there ANYTHING that you see from either of those guys, mentally or physically, that don't put them in the potential/development category? WR is showing flashes. He's still young and needs a LOT of physical strength. KJ....OMG, he has measurables and he has tools, but right now, he's been a below average college guard. His decisions are befuddling.

I'm not a big NBA guy, but I'm obviously a Bulls fan. If I didn't know who KJ was because he was playing at Kansas State, I'd be IRATE if that was our lottery pick. Add to that is the fact that the NBA draft money slots. There's no negotiations. If you're an NBA team that has fans that want to win NOW....they'll lose their minds.

Now, if he's drafted 35th, they'd be all about it. That's where development guys go. At that point, it's all about money. If you're the college player, where is the money better and are you absolutely done with the thought of taking classes?

None of us know that. Also, we'll see if he completely turns this around and puts this team on his back.
 
#406      
I think people mistake "First Round/Lottery Pick" as "Ready on Day 1."

A lot of the players drafted in those spots are forced to play Day 1 because they're going to bottom-dwelling teams, but the draft is about potential. KJ, Will, and Tomi all have the potential, and that's what front offices will draft on. They'll trust that their coaches and the players having all their focus on basketball instead of splitting it between school and basketball will solve their ills.
And not to keep piling on, but the "we're wasting so much talent" complaints are flimsy, although not completely unwarranted.

KJ and Riley are both super talented but right now, they're young, raw, and inconsistent. These aren't instant impact pros. They're talented players who haven't quite come into their own. I don't know that there's much more we can get out of a couple teenagers.
 
#407      
He said he 'lit up' NBA players. Different than 'holding his own'. But, anyhow, the NBA hype machine has also brought us generational talents the likes of Ben Simmons, Michael Olowokandi, Anthony Bennett, Kwame Brown, Sam Bowie, et al. He just doesn't have the offensive package of a Doncic/Durant/LBJ/Tatum/SGA/Edwards and doesn't have the size to make up for that like Giannis/Wemby.

While this sidebar is fun, I'm still waiting for someone to disprove my original assertion that you can win in 2025 with a young roster.
The difference there is that all of those guys are bigs or have freakish size given their athletic ability, right?

Part of my concern with KJ is that on top of the disastrous play, would you put him in the truly athletic category? I'm not a GM and I'm FAR from a scout. I don't see what they do. I don't think that I've seen him go up and stuff one in traffic all year.

Again, we'll see. What I do know is that my TV has almost been broken multiple times with his play this year .

Sorry, my Flagg comment dripped back into KJ. Lol
 
#408      
You don't draft a lottery pick on potential. You draft guys with potential and development needs in the second round. Is there ANYTHING that you see from either of those guys, mentally or physically, that don't put them in the potential/development category? WR is showing flashes. He's still young and needs a LOT of physical strength. KJ....OMG, he has measurables and he has tools, but right now, he's been a below average college guard. His decisions are befuddling.

I'm not a big NBA guy, but I'm obviously a Bulls fan. If I didn't know who KJ was because he was playing at Kansas State, I'd be IRATE if that was our lottery pick. Add to that is the fact that the NBA draft money slots. There's no negotiations. If you're an NBA team that has fans that want to win NOW....they'll lose their minds.

Now, if he's drafted 35th, they'd be all about it. That's where development guys go. At that point, it's all about money. If you're the college player, where is the money better and are you absolutely done with the thought of taking classes?

None of us know that. Also, we'll see if he completely turns this around and puts this team on his back.
Here are last year's lottery picks.

1. Hawks: Zaccharie Risacher, 19 y.o. - 11 pts, 3 rbs
2. Wizards: Alex Sarr, 19 y.o. - 11 pts, 7 rbs
3. Rockets: Reed Shepard, 20 y.o. - 3.5 pts, 1 rb
4. Spurs: Stephon Castle, 20 y.o. - 13 pts, 4 ast
5. Pistons: Ron Holland, 19 y.o. - 6 pts, 3 rbs
6. Hornets: Tidjane Salaun, 19 y.o. - 5 pts, 4 rbs
7. Blazers: Donovan Clingan, 20 y.o. - 6 pts, 7 rbs
8. TWolves: Rob Dillingham, 20 y.o. - 6 pts, 3 ast
9. Grizzlies: Zach Edey, 22 y.o. - 9 pts, 8 rbs
10. Jazz: Cody Wiliams, 20 y.o. - 4 pts, 2 rbs
11. Bulls: Matas Buzelis, 20 y.o. - 6 pts, 3 rbs
12. Thunder: Nikola Topic, 19 y.o. - N/A
13. Kings: Devin Carter, 22 y.o. - 4 pts, 2 rbs
14. Wizards: Bub Carrington, 19. y.o. - 9, 4, 4

The lottery is almost entirely made up of young, developmental prospects.
 
#409      
But what is perhaps the most perplexing… at times this season: WE HAVE run legit, specific plays and offense. What happened to executing that stuff? The Princeton actions with the blur screens that we’ve done well or the Spain action after a ball screen…where have those kinds of things even, gone of late?

The defense was rated much higher than we could have ever anticipated at one point. Look at it now…Yes we’ve got depleted manpower…but that skid started before guys starting going down.
So I’ve been wondering about that too and here is my educated guess: a lot of those sorts of sets run through Tomi. And even though he’s been gutting out he likely hasn’t practiced much if at all since coming down with Mono a month ago. Those sorts of sets require timing and precision that you just can’t get without practicing, and I can see why we wouldn’t be comfortable running them in game action. Also, KJ certainly had careless turnovers last night but I felt like at least 3-4 of them were him passing to someone that wasn’t there, which could also be a result of lack of practice time.

As far as defense, same issues with Tomi’s injury. I could be wrong but I felt like a big part of why our defense was so effective was Tomi’s feel. Basically being able to stunt/recover in drop and make the driving guard hesitate enough for our guard to catch up and contest the shot. He also has great hands/anticipation and felt like he would get his hands on 3-4 balls per game. Now with no wind and one leg, Tomi just can’t stunt and recover like he was and so we are giving up more and easier shots.

There have been other issues on both offense and defense too, but i think you can pretty much draw a straight line between when we lost Tomi’s health and when we started struggling.

EDIT: I will also say for both, while the illnesses/injuries certainly present challenges, it is incumbent upon the staff to observe what’s going on in the games (I.e Tomi can’t stunt/recover like he was earlier) and adjust. Maybe that means more Morez in drop before the injury, playing a little less soft on the perimeter.I dont know, but I don’t feel we’ve seen nearly enough adjustments to account for our physical limitations the last month.
 
Last edited:
#412      
Tomi will be back pretty much for sure. KJ is gone, Will could be interesting. They are going to have a massive NIL offer for him
Wish there was a way to convince KJ to stay, especially if his draft stock is falling. This year 1 reminds me of TSJ year 1 where it was sloppy but the bright spots were BRIGHT. Year 2 KJ would be in NPOY talks.

But I get it. He wants to be a pro and get paid. Can’t blame him for that.
 
#413      
... a lot of those sorts of sets run through Tomi. ...

I think it's been alluded to since early in the season: KJ and Tomi are skilled at running the two-man game at the top of the key. No one else can really play either role in the two-man game (OK, Rez sets strong screens and will roll to the basket, and those pan out sometimes. But Rez has none of the shooting and passing and footwork skills that Tomi uses to, with KJ, power the two-man game.)

The rest of the players lack the feel for that tight screen and pass stuff. So the rest of the team play the third role in the two-man game: spot up at different perimeter positions for a catch-and-shoot three, or a rare back-cut for a shot near the rim. (Kylan will drive off that high screen, but not very well and he has trouble dropping dimes off the drive. Once a month or so, presumably depending upon matchups, Ben breaks out at a couple booty-ball attacks but he doesn't pass out of that very effectively.)
 
#414      
If you can be draft police, I get to be age police. Will Riley will be 26 for pretty much all of calendar year 2032.
Billy Gardell Reaction GIF by CBS
 
#415      
But what is perhaps the most perplexing… at times this season: WE HAVE run legit, specific plays and offense. What happened to executing that stuff? The Princeton actions with the blur screens that we’ve done well or the Spain action after a ball screen…where have those kinds of things even, gone of late?

The defense was rated much higher than we could have ever anticipated at one point. Look at it now…Yes we’ve got depleted manpower…but that skid started before guys starting going down.

We need to force the staff to watch the Minnesota game on a loop, DO THAT AGAIN

loop orange GIF
 
#416      
Tomi will be back pretty much for sure. KJ is gone, Will could be interesting. They are going to have a massive NIL offer for him
Really? Wow that would indeed be massive, I would think. I was curious and found this with regard to last year's draft:
It seems that everyone in the first round is making significantly more money than even the highest-rumored NIL deals last year, AND you also have to keep in mind that starting on an NBA contract a year early means you can get your second contract or sign a rookie extension a year early too.

Plus, while I would think KJ is trending down a bit as far as draft stock, I would think Will would be moving up at least a little bit compared to earlier in the year projections. Is that not the case?

Would love to have him a second year though!
 
#417      
It's so discouraging for me that it seems we're going to lose DGL next year. I just can't wrap my head around how someone that is so loyal, hard working, brings high energy and has seemed to be the highest talent person on the court in several games this year doesn't get rewarded Somehow. the coaching staff doesn't feel he deserves playing time over others he constantly out performs? If he leaves after this year I can't help but think this is a huge blunder for Underwood. Possibly there's off court stuff we're not aware of, if not this is very puzzling.
 
#418      
Not to challenge the board police, but with all due respect, what you say is true, but those guys are usually drafted 50th, not 5th.

If you're in the top 10, the expectation is to play now and get minutes now. Right now, AT BEST, with how they're playing.....they'd be considered projects and you're right ...at 25, he might be ready. That would be 2032.

If you argue that KJ is 2 or 3 years away.....that's 2028. Any GM with a top 10 pick would be fired if that's the expectation for a lottery pick.

Look at TSJ......he's 3 years older and is 10 times the player of both of those guys(to your point, he's more developed).....but if he's getting minimal tick, where would KJ or WR be?

Most importantly, what's the guaranteed money for a lottery pick slot? If you're Utah or Washington....are you doing that deal?

Right now, they are projects and they'll test the waters and will see if the money makes sense. If it does, you leave. If it doesn't, collect your millions in NIL and stay. That easy.
What are you talking about...Giannis got drafted 15th while he was playing in the Greek second division and no one this side of the Atlantic knew who he was. He was a project and turned into one of the best players in the world.

Just one example, but it happens all the time. Nobody, in any sport, drafts based on anything other than potential. No front office is expecting their lottery pick to be a stud from day 1. If they are, that's a bonus
 
#420      
Always disappointing as a fan of any team in any sport to be pulling out the, "I can't wait til next year while the current season is still on." I pretty much did that about 90% of the time as a Cubs fan.
My feelings as well. I think LvilleILL thinks he's being positive with these takes on the future. I find it depressing.

We professed to have a culture but we don't appear to, which probably is going to exacerbate our turnover.

For example, if Tomi doesn't go pro, why should I have any confidence that he returns?
 
#421      
KJ is getting doubled every time he's in position for a shot or a drive, but he hasn't been able to pass it to an open team mate lately. I think the staff should be able to coach him how to handle that.
Sturdy from Illini Guys said on their podcast last night that he talked to an NBA scout who said flat out that KJ would excel in the league and that his current struggles are bc he is simply not being used correctly.
 
#423      
I think it's been alluded to since early in the season: KJ and Tomi are skilled at running the two-man game at the top of the key. No one else can really play either role in the two-man game (OK, Rez sets strong screens and will roll to the basket, and those pan out sometimes. But Rez has none of the shooting and passing and footwork skills that Tomi uses to, with KJ, power the two-man game.)

The rest of the players lack the feel for that tight screen and pass stuff. So the rest of the team play the third role in the two-man game: spot up at different perimeter positions for a catch-and-shoot three, or a rare back-cut for a shot near the rim. (Kylan will drive off that high screen, but not very well and he has trouble dropping dimes off the drive. Once a month or so, presumably depending upon matchups, Ben breaks out at a couple booty-ball attacks but he doesn't pass out of that very effectively.)
And on the back cut to the rim, you can also pretty much draw a straight line between Tomi’s and KJ’s health and Tre White’s fall off.

Easy to forget now that he’s been MIA for so long, but he had an 8 game stretch from mid December to mid January where he averaged 15.5 points a game, mainly on cutting to the basket.
 
#424      
You don't draft a lottery pick on potential.
Lol what? Half the lottery these days are all "potential" "high ceiling" type picks nowadays. Literally 2 of the top 3 picks last year were dudes from France who never averaged more than 10ppg in half decent (at best) international leagues.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back