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Old Feb 22, 2012, 08:57 PM   #51
FinalFour88
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I still haven't seen Randle play. Is he running the point for Stanford?
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:10 PM   #52
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I'm not sure we would have had much success with this approach in the Big 10 where most teams are fundamentally sound.
Not constant running, but 8-10 fast-break ppg in B1G play would have been a very realistic goal for this team. We need some easy buckets, and we don't get them.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:10 PM   #53
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I still haven't seen Randle play. Is he running the point for Stanford?
He's a CG.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:12 PM   #54
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We also lost out because we didn't lock him up early when he was close to committing (but still after Abrams committed).
Yeah, he silently verbaled one weekend but went back on it shortly after.

Last edited by Dan; Feb 23, 2012 at 03:43 AM.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:18 PM   #55
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He's a CG.
Given the time the freshmen have played this year, it's hard to imagine Randle really getting much playing time this year if he had gone to Illinois. With Paul and Richardson playing so much, there are few minutes to go at a combo guard spot. If anything, he might have taken minutes from Abrams.

So in general I think his impact at Illinois this year would have been minimal.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:37 PM   #56
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Given the time the freshmen have played this year, it's hard to imagine Randle really getting much playing time this year if he had gone to Illinois. With Paul and Richardson playing so much, there are few minutes to go at a combo guard spot. If anything, he might have taken minutes from Abrams.

So in general I think his impact at Illinois this year would have been minimal.
Given that he is a substantially better player than Abrams at this point, he would have taken minutes from Abrams and we would have been better for it. Right now Randle has better court sense, better handles and a FAR better offensive game. You don't think that would have helped this team?

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Old Feb 22, 2012, 09:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by HeartofaChampion View Post
Not constant running, but 8-10 fast-break ppg in B1G play would have been a very realistic goal for this team. We need some easy buckets, and we don't get them.
Of course, to run we need to rebound. Those haven't been easy to come by either.

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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:00 PM   #58
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Chicago is the problem, not the solution.

Letting Jamar back on the team was a problem from a culture standpoint.

Weber really likes these kids unlike some recent editions of the team.

Losing a job is on the coaching staff but the players bear a lot of responsibility here.

Losing out on Chasson a big deal. Implied the wrong coach was recruiting him. In fact it may be my imagination but I suspect that there is one coach on this squad that Klee thinks is a disaster. Not sure which one but he makes frequent allusions to the fact that one coach is not on the same page as everyone else.
Dayton, it has to start at the top. I am not sure of BW's compass. He didn't seem to have a feel for people.

There should never be a question regarding a mis-aligned assistant. If that happens, it shows a lack of leadership. Weber was unable to connect and close with recruits. Again, shows a lack of feel for people. Snack's talents get hugely amplified because of BW's limitations.

I question the conclusion that Randle was a better recruit than what Illinois got. Who has BW managed to develop in the past? DWill? I argue that DWill has a special drive and that he would have developed anywhere. Perhaps if Chasson was here, he would be languishing like DJ.

In the end BW just didn't have the critical talents. The leadership and judgment skills were lacking. There is no way to compensate for that.

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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:04 PM   #59
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Given that he is a substantially better player than Abrams at this point, he would have taken minutes from Abrams and we would have been better for it. Right now Randle has better court sense, better handles and a FAR better offensive game. You don't think that would have helped this team?
I don't think that he would have helped this team. Because I don't think that BW would have been able to help him develop. If Tracy and Randle change places, we would probably be saying that Tracy would have been a better fit for Illinois. Why has DJ been stuck in neutral for all these years?

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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:05 PM   #60
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Given that he is a substantially better player than Abrams at this point, he would have taken minutes from Abrams and we would have been better for it. Right now Randle has better court sense, better handles and a FAR better offensive game. You don't think that would have helped this team?
yes, he would have helped the team, but the help would have been minimal because of limited playing time. I just don't believe Weber would have played him enough. Early in the year Sam was playing a ton. And Paul and D.J. didn't see a drop in playing time until the floor fell out from under the team.
So I just don't believe he would have had much impact. Weber in general has shown little interest in playing many players, especially younger players.

I would have liked Randle to have chosen Illinois but to think he would have made much difference this year goes against most of what I've seen from Weber led teams.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:05 PM   #61
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Of course, to run we need to rebound. Those haven't been easy to come by either.
Understood, but we get enough defensive boards each game to generate fast break buckets both primary and secondary breaks. We simply don't even try to and don't seem to have a secondary break strategy at all. We also haven't pressured the passing lanes on D all season, either, or attempted any occasional trapping like we used to, both of which can generate turnovers that lead to fast breaks. We basically play a safe defense and rely solely on halfcourt offense to generate our points. Nothing comes easy on offense for us in part due to this.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:08 PM   #62
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Understood, but we get enough defensive boards each game to generate fast break buckets both primary and secondary breaks. We simply don't even try to and don't seem to have a secondary break strategy at all. We also haven't pressured the passing lanes on D all season, either, or attempted any occasional trapping like we used to, both of which can generate turnovers that lead to fast breaks. We basically play a safe defense and rely solely on halfcourt offense to generate our points. Nothing comes easy on offense for us in part due to this.
It's also hard to run when the ballhandling skills of the guards are extremely limited. D.J. can't run the break, Paul's passing woes make it dangerous to run and Sam just can't do it anymore.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:08 PM   #63
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Given the time the freshmen have played this year, it's hard to imagine Randle really getting much playing time this year if he had gone to Illinois. With Paul and Richardson playing so much, there are few minutes to go at a combo guard spot. If anything, he might have taken minutes from Abrams.

So in general I think his impact at Illinois this year would have been minimal.
He definitely would have taken minutes from TA. I think he'd have started ahead of TA and given us a good outside shooting threat, better passing and solid handles. Total guess, but I could see him making the difference in a couple of losses at least (at PSU, at Minn for sure). He's having a nice season at Stanford. He'd also be taking mins from SM in that TA would get the backup PG mins with CR starting, which would help us, too, since SM has provided very little in B1G play.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:09 PM   #64
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You can fastbreak after made baskets. What a novel idea.

You can also fastbreak at tipoff. We have gotten almost all of the tips...run a fastbreak off the tip, seen it done many times.

HOC, my contact tells me that we do very little to zero fastbreak work in practice, is that what you hear as well?

The team that plays faster, yet under control, can usually control the outcome of the game.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:12 PM   #65
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It's also hard to run when the ballhandling skills of the guards are extremely limited. D.J. can't run the break, Paul's passing woes make it dangerous to run and Sam just can't do it anymore.
BP would actually do better handling and passing the ball in the open court instead of in a 5-on-5 halfcourt situation with more congestion, tighter defense on the ball and more complicated defenses to deal with. JB, too, and TA as well. And teams generally become good at what they practice regularly. If UI wanted to become at least an OK transition team, it could do it by devoting time, teaching and energy to practicing it regularly.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:14 PM   #66
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HOC, my contact tells me that we do very little to zero fastbreak work in practice, is that what you hear as well?
Yes. My buddy's source says they practiced fast breaking quite a bit before the Italy trip, then eschewed it once official practices began.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:17 PM   #67
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He definitely would have taken minutes from TA. I think he'd have started ahead of TA and given us a good outside shooting threat, better passing and solid handles. Total guess, but I could see him making the difference in a couple of losses at least (at PSU, at Minn for sure). He's having a nice season at Stanford. He'd also be taking mins from SM in that TA would get the backup PG mins with CR starting, which would help us, too, since SM has provided very little in B1G play.
I'd like to think this is true, I just not sure how big a difference given the history.
But this actually is perhaps the biggest sign of Weber's downfall -- the number of non-CPL/downstate Illinois kids he missed on that might have made a difference. Randle, Jackson, Jones, Cooley, McNeal, Scheyer etc.

Heck with having a coach lock down Chicago, I want the next coach to lock down the rest of the state so that Larry Austin, D. Austin, Bates Diop, P. Allen, etc. don't join the Randles of the world that have us speculating "what if"
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:24 PM   #68
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But this actually is perhaps the biggest sign of Weber's downfall -- the number of non-CPL/downstate Illinois kids he missed on that might have made a difference. Randle, Jackson, Jones, Cooley, McNeal, Scheyer etc.

Heck with having a coach lock down Chicago, I want the next coach to lock down the rest of the state so that Larry Austin, D. Austin, Bates Diop, P. Allen, etc. don't join the Randles of the world that have us speculating "what if"
No argument from me there, Icasa. BW made some poor recruiting choices: no to LewJack, Cole over Hummel, Cooley over TG (was told that Cooley wanted to come to UI but the staff decided to go for TG over him due to his shooting ability), etc. And agreed on downstate and the suburbs. We need to occasionally land a top Chicago player, but we also need to lock up the rest of the state more, too. I think we blew it with LA by waiting to offer for several months when he wanted to verbal then and there. The staff wasn't sure he was going to develop into a top D1 PG yet, so they waited and waited, which was their prerogative, but some folks (albeit posters like me) believed from first viewing that LA had that potential and should have gotten an offer a year ago or so. Now he's more interested in Mizzou, and who can blame him ...
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 10:32 PM   #69
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No argument from me there, Icasa. BW made some poor recruiting choices: no to LewJack, Cole over Hummel, Cooley over TG (was told that Cooley wanted to come to UI but the staff decided to go for TG over him due to his shooting ability), etc. And agreed on downstate and the suburbs. We need to occasionally land a top Chicago player, but we also need to lock up the rest of the state more, too. I think we blew it with LA by waiting to offer for several months when he wanted to verbal then and there. The staff wasn't sure he was going to develop into a top D1 PG yet, so they waited and waited, which was their prerogative, but some folks (albeit posters like me) believed from first viewing that LA had that potential and should have gotten an offer a year ago or so. Now he's more interested in Mizzou, and who can blame him ...
Agree on them waiting too long with LA. It was a really odd decision.

The one thing I will say with LA, if Illinois hires a coach that connects with him, I still think there will be a good chance he comes to Illinois. There will be a lot of local pressure to go to Champaign if the new coach seems at all reasonable.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:02 PM   #70
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I don't think that he would have helped this team. Because I don't think that BW would have been able to help him develop. If Tracy and Randle change places, we would probably be saying that Tracy would have been a better fit for Illinois. Why has DJ been stuck in neutral for all these years?
Randle was WAY ahead of Abrams coming out of high school. Plenty of guards have developed under Weber: off the top of my head McCamey improved dramatically, Deron Williams, Dee Brown, Chester Frazier, Meacham. Even Paul has improved, he just had a long way to go.

Randle isn't better because Dawkins did a better job bringing him along, he was far better entering Stanford than Abrams was entering Illinois.

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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:32 PM   #71
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Randle was WAY ahead of Abrams coming out of high school.
GHD, what are you judging this by? Did you watch them in HS or AAU?

I saw them both play a bunch, very close call. I would like to have had both.

Scout and ESPN had them very close in talent and rated them almost the same?? Wonder where the WAY ahead came from.

Not so much.
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Old Feb 22, 2012, 11:43 PM   #72
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I think McClain and Self were a good mix, McClain and BW not so. Bruce should have nudged WM out the door in '07 or '08 and brought in somebody more in tune with his philosophies.
Brought in someone more in tune with Bruce's philosophies? That's a terrifying thought . . .
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 12:49 AM   #73
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GHD, what are you judging this by? Did you watch them in HS or AAU?

I saw them both play a bunch, very close call. I would like to have had both.

Scout and ESPN had them very close in talent and rated them almost the same?? Wonder where the WAY ahead came from.

Not so much.
Top 5 Mr. Basketball: Randle No. 4, Abrams not on the list.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...oys-basketball

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6. Chasson Randle, 6-2, PG/2G, Rock Island
Rock solid and steady throughout his career, which culminated with a Class 3A state championship and sharing the Mr. Basketball award. Randle may not wow you, but he is polished, does so many things well and is one of the more college-ready players in the class. (Abrams was ranked 8, based largely on potential.)

http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsrepor...hts_final.html
As prospects, many folks had Chasson only slightly ahead of Randle. As high school players, it wasn't really close. Randle was far more polished coming out of high school. Abrams was ranked more on potential due to his toughness and explosiveness.

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Old Feb 23, 2012, 03:27 AM   #74
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Plenty of guards have developed under Weber: off the top of my head McCamey improved dramatically, Deron Williams, Dee Brown, Chester Frazier, Meacham. Even Paul has improved, he just had a long way to go.
Chester Frazier and Trent Meacham? Dee Brown? All improved under Weber? Would they not have improved this much if I was the coach?

It is hard to argue with these statements. All I have to say is that if BW had it together and had the ability to develop players, then we will not be in the state that we are in.

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Old Feb 23, 2012, 07:36 AM   #75
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Brought in someone more in tune with Bruce's philosophies? That's a terrifying thought . . .
I see what you're getting at here, but I think the reference is to the idea that the kids are getting two or three different answers to the same question from different members of the staff. You could see, given that this probably happens often, why players might look confused on a court when they aren't really sure what is the right way to do things.

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