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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:22 PM   #17601
combes
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Originally Posted by troyk View Post
It will grow strings the second KDB commits because that will leave us with no extra rides for Finke.
Nope. So, do you think if Finke committed today that we would stop recruiting Bates-Diop? Of course not. Same thing the other way.

Still think it will be Bates-Diop, Finke and a point guard.

Last edited by combes; Nov 14, 2012 at 12:26 PM.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:23 PM   #17602
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So if O'Mara commits, Finke can commit the next day? That's insane
Just realized that O'Mara goes to Benet Academy...Kind of want to go see him play seeing that I live in Lisle...
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:30 PM   #17603
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How does he compare to Zabo/Mitchell/et al? Is Lyle the #1 priority for PG in 2014?
I have seen almost nothing of Zabo but the little I did see looked like he had a much tighter handle than Lyle. Lyle in that video looks out of control. Maybe he is head and shoulders better than his teammates at Bosse. To me he looks like a sharp passing 3 to me. He might turn out to be a great PG. He certainly has great court vision. I think that is a question mark right now.

Personally he doesn't seem to fit the mold of a historical "Groce PG".

IMO, we really need a kid that is a no doubt about it PG.

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Originally Posted by BrooksTaylorFan View Post
I agree. Didn't mean to imply that I thought that Lyle would commit anytime soon. Just saying that we are in better shape with him now than most poeple believe and landing KBD would certainly strengthen our cause. Groce is watching Zabo and Mitchell, but both are long shots to land. Lyle is definitely the likely option of those three, but we still have a long way to go.
Would you agree that we might prefer a kid with less buzz but one that has tighter handles and more leadership ability?

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:32 PM   #17604
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Originally Posted by DG1985 View Post
So if O'Mara commits, Finke can commit the next day? That's insane
You assume that O'Mara also has an unconditional offer.

Fact is, if you look at the scholarship grid, we have some 10-15 offers out there. We don't expect all of them will commit. If that was actually an issue, schools would be much more careful about handing out scholarship offers.

In other words, what combes is saying (true or not, I don't know) is that Finke is essentially first in line for a big-man scholarship here. KBD is first in line for a guard schollie.

I think offers are extended most of the time as a compliment and a way to maintain a relationship with a certain AAU coach, school, etc. "Hey, we think you're a pretty good player and deserve some high-major offers, but keep in mind we have three other guys ahead of you." Maybe someone with more experience with this stuff can shed some light and maybe confirm my thinking?

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:34 PM   #17605
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So if O'Mara commits, Finke can commit the next day? That's insane
First of all, those guys play different positions and I don't think they would take a commit from O'Mara until Alexander is out of play.

Secondly, I've inquired about where Finke stands now that Colbert has come onboard, but no one seems to know. Normally I would side with Coombs on this one, but with Wisconsin just landing Nigel Hayes and also having Vitto Brown coming in 2013 as PF's, I'm not sure. Wisconsin has likely backed off on Finke now so that takes off the pressure. It would be hard to not take Finke now because having a Champaign kid blow up at another school is never good.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:35 PM   #17606
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:35 PM   #17607
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Originally Posted by combes View Post
Nope. So, do you think if Finke committed today that we would stop recruiting Bates-Diop? Of course not. Same thing the other way.

Still think it will be Bates-Diop, Finke and a point guard.
Are you saying that if Finke commits Groce still would take O'Mara since there are no strings attached? Or does Finke have a better offer than O'Mara?

I think Groce will now focus on KBD and a PG. He will still recruit Finke and O'Mara just in case we have transfers. He will make room for a CA, JO or JP regardless if somebody wants to transfer or not.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:37 PM   #17608
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Originally Posted by combes View Post
Nope. So, do you think if Finke committed today that we would stop recruiting Bates-Diop? Of course not. Same thing the other way.

Still think it will be Bates-Diop, Finke and a point guard.
We're splitting hairs here. The strings would be that if KDB committed before Finke, we'd have to hope for a transfer or a decommit. Otherwise, we literally have no extra ride for him. Those are strings.

I'm just not sold on the idea that the staff will take Finke no matter what when we only have 1 scholarship for 2014. I realize some can open up, but we are only allowed to oversign by 1. So by taking both Finke and KDB, we would assure ourselves that we likely don't end up with a guard in 2014. Since Groce seems to prefer having a lot of guards for his offense, that just doesn't make sense to me to take two bigs in 2014 early and avoid even a shot at any guards.

We are basically hoping that 1 or even 2 guys transfer by then, and that doesn't seem to be a good way to go about business. Just my opinion.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:38 PM   #17609
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
I have seen almost nothing of Zabo but the little I did see looked like he had a much tighter handle than Lyle. Lyle in that video looks out of control. Maybe he is head and shoulders better than his teammates at Bosse. To me he looks like a sharp passing 3 to me. He might turn out to be a great PG. He certainly has great court vision. I think that is a question mark right now.

Personally he doesn't seem to fit the mold of a historical "Groce PG".

IMO, we really need a kid that is a no doubt about it PG.



Would you agree that we might prefer a kid with less buzz but one that has tighter handles and more leadership ability?
Sure, but raw talent favors Lyle. Lyle does have some immaturity issues, but the right coach, system, and structure would go a long ways towards his development. Everything I have seen in the videos of Lyle look fixable, but I'm not a college head coach either. You certainly couldn't go wrong with Zabo either.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:39 PM   #17610
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Originally Posted by troyk View Post
Considering we only have 1 scholarship next year guaranteed, I can't see Groce jumping on Finke first when we have some (no offense to Finke) better options in the pipeline. Just seems foolish to jump that early with limited rides available.

Any chance Finke is willing to walk-on his first year?
Seriously?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:40 PM   #17611
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Dan- Any word yet on the other four sending over their NLI's?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:44 PM   #17612
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Why is KBD not rated on rivals? I know rating aren't everything but its kind of surprising.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...es-Diop-131248

EDIT: nevermind on the actual list he is 20 overall
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:46 PM   #17613
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Originally Posted by Illini1324 View Post
Why is KBD not rated on rivals? I know rating aren't everything but its kind of surprising.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...es-Diop-131248
He is a 4 star and #20 overall for the class of 2014.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketb...ings/rank-2993
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:48 PM   #17614
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I understand the rationale, but consider this. We talked about wanting to have a 9- or 10-man rotation. We have 14 guys on this team, two of which are walk-ons. Clearly the bottom three on the scholarship list right now are Langford, Shaw, and Ibby. Even LaTulip has gotten more time to this point than those guys because of our lack of PG depth, but because he's a walk-on, there's literally no pressure on us to deal with that if he's willing to remain here as a walk-on. For the other guys though, they want to have the playing time and they're not likely to get it here unless their practice or play improves enough to prove to Groce they deserve PT.

Or, perhaps they don't, and they're okay with walking away from the team if we ask them nicely enough to vacate their scholarship and consider a transfer to another school.

You will always have two or three players on the verge of a possible transfer because no one tries to run 13 players out there every game.

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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:50 PM   #17615
DG1985
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Originally Posted by Botb9 View Post
You assume that O'Mara also has an unconditional offer.

Fact is, if you look at the scholarship grid, we have some 10-15 offers out there. We don't expect all of them will commit. If that was actually an issue, schools would be much more careful about handing out scholarship offers.

In other words, what combes is saying (true or not, I don't know) is that Finke is essentially first in line for a big-man scholarship here. KBD is first in line for a guard schollie.

I think offers are extended most of the time as a compliment and a way to maintain a relationship with a certain AAU coach, school, etc. "Hey, we think you're a pretty good player and deserve some high-major offers, but keep in mind we have three other guys ahead of you." Maybe someone with more experience with this stuff can shed some light and maybe confirm my thinking?
Actually, I'm not assuming anything, or at least not much. But lots of other people assume plenty. I've heard Groce only offers if he's willing to take the kid if he accepts right then. That all offers are unconditional. etc.

Every offer has the condition of enough room. Stated or not, every remaining offer for 13, with the possible exception of Parker, is off the table.

I believe, stated or not, that every offer is also conditional on what other offers have been accepted. At any given time that one player accepts, my guess is that the coaching staff and the other recruited players know that the situation is somewhat different and that their offer may or may not be changed in some way.

Coombs may actually know the staff or the Finkes and directly understand that nothing has changed. But I will assume that commitments for any given class at any given position has the potential to affect the offers that were outstanding.

Hopefully Groce is real clear with players as to what the circumstances are that might cause their offer to change. I'd hate to see a repeat of the Weber/David Palmer debacle.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:50 PM   #17616
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Originally Posted by BrooksTaylorFan View Post
Dan- Any word yet on the other four sending over their NLI's?
Groce's teleconference is scheduled for 4pm CT, so I'd guess that they've arranged with everyone to have them sent in before then.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:53 PM   #17617
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Originally Posted by Botb9 View Post
I understand the rationale, but consider this. We talked about wanting to have a 9- or 10-man rotation. We have 14 guys on this team, two of which are walk-ons. Clearly the bottom three on the scholarship list right now are Langford, Shaw, and Ibby. Even LaTulip has gotten more time to this point than those guys because of our lack of PG depth, but because he's a walk-on, there's literally no pressure on us to deal with that if he's willing to remain here as a walk-on. For the other guys though, they want to have the playing time and they're not likely to get it here unless their practice or play improves enough to prove to Groce they deserve PT.

Or, perhaps they don't, and they're okay with walking away from the team if we ask them nicely enough to vacate their scholarship and consider a transfer to another school.

You will always have two or three players on the verge of a possible transfer because no one tries to run 13 players out there every game.
I said this on a different thread already but Latulip reminds me of Matt Heldman. A guy who gets the most out of his talent and harasses the janitors to open the gym early in the morning for him to get in. (Heldman actually did this in elementary school and high school, he also played at the local park during the winter provided no snow.) Anything Latulip gives us is gravy and he will continue to get better.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 12:54 PM   #17618
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Originally Posted by DG1985 View Post
Actually, I'm not assuming anything, or at least not much. But lots of other people assume plenty. I've heard Groce only offers if he's willing to take the kid if he accepts right then. That all offers are unconditional. etc.

Every offer has the condition of enough room. Stated or not, every remaining offer for 13, with the possible exception of Parker, is off the table.

I believe, stated or not, that every offer is also conditional on what other offers have been accepted. At any given time that one player accepts, my guess is that the coaching staff and the other recruited players know that the situation is somewhat different and that their offer may or may not be changed in some way.

Coombs may actually know the staff or the Finkes and directly understand that nothing has changed. But I will assume that commitments for any given class at any given position has the potential to affect the offers that were outstanding.

Hopefully Groce is real clear with players as to what the circumstances are that might cause their offer to change. I'd hate to see a repeat of the Weber/David Palmer debacle.
This is most likely the case. I just don't see Finke's offer staying unconditional if KDB commits. Groce will have to let Finke know that he can only have that ride if someone transfers. It will have to have strings.

I can't imagine Groce telling a kid its still unconditional because he's certain at least one player will transfer out. That seems shady.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:02 PM   #17619
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I don't see Langford going anywhere at all. The other two would be much more of a possibility though. With that said I just don't see CA coming to Illinois no matter what. Maybe i am a pessimist but I just don't see it happening. Lyle could very well come especially once KBD commits but I still think he is a long shot. The main thing we have going for us with Lyle is the fact that a couple of the schools are passed their limit already with schollies.

I would seriously like to see Larry Austin here instead of Lyle. LA seems to have a more mature nature about him than Lyle. I know LA isn't a top 10 guy but he just feels like a much better fit. I would like to have either one there is no doubt about that. Considering what Groce has done so far.

Nunn
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Rice
KBD, Lyle, LA, Finke i would take any of the three listed here.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:15 PM   #17620
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I don't see Langford going anywhere at all. The other two would be much more of a possibility though. With that said I just don't see CA coming to Illinois no matter what. Maybe i am a pessimist but I just don't see it happening. Lyle could very well come especially once KBD commits but I still think he is a long shot. The main thing we have going for us with Lyle is the fact that a couple of the schools are passed their limit already with schollies.

I would seriously like to see Larry Austin here instead of Lyle. LA seems to have a more mature nature about him than Lyle. I know LA isn't a top 10 guy but he just feels like a much better fit. I would like to have either one there is no doubt about that. Considering what Groce has done so far.

Nunn
Tate
Colbert
Morgan
Rice
KBD, Lyle, LA, Finke i would take any of the three listed here.
Hill?

KBD, Lyle/Zabo > LA, CA > Finke, where ">" means prefer
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:16 PM   #17621
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I would like to see some examples.
Sullinger, Big Baby Davis, Kevin Love, and Kendrick Perkins are some examples of current players. Many more have been in and out of the league over the years. Many of them have not stuck but were still drafted, often at a high position. Some historical examples include Kevin Duckworth, Charles Oakley, Joe Klein, and Big Country Reeves. A big man with a good motor who can run the floor is rare and highly valued in the NBA.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:25 PM   #17622
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Originally Posted by Indicchief View Post
Hill?

KBD, Lyle/Zabo > LA, CA > Finke, where ">" means prefer
Yeah i forgot hill but CA just isnt going to happen so I wouldnt take to much stock in him. I would say 98% he goes to MSU.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:26 PM   #17623
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Hill?

KBD, Lyle/Zabo > LA, CA > Finke, where ">" means prefer
Yes, but...

Finke/CA is a timing issue. Unless things have radically changed (doubtful), Alexander isn't close to pulling the trigger and, even if he is, we're in third. If Finke decides to commit and Groce says let's wait, what do you think is gonna happen? Finke's gonna walk. I highly, highly doubt Groce will let that happen.

Austin: (directed to the prev. poster) needs to demonstrate PG proficiency and a reasonable outside shot. If he can do both, he may climb our PG prospects ladder. Until then, he's where he should be (behind Lyle, Zabo & Mitchell).
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:31 PM   #17624
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I understand the rationale, but consider this. We talked about wanting to have a 9- or 10-man rotation. We have 14 guys on this team, two of which are walk-ons. Clearly the bottom three on the scholarship list right now are Langford, Shaw, and Ibby. Even LaTulip has gotten more time to this point than those guys because of our lack of PG depth, but because he's a walk-on, there's literally no pressure on us to deal with that if he's willing to remain here as a walk-on. For the other guys though, they want to have the playing time and they're not likely to get it here unless their practice or play improves enough to prove to Groce they deserve PT.

Or, perhaps they don't, and they're okay with walking away from the team if we ask them nicely enough to vacate their scholarship and consider a transfer to another school.

You will always have two or three players on the verge of a possible transfer because no one tries to run 13 players out there every game.

Been waiting for someone to paint this picture.. Schloraships are not guaranteed with the BB program so Shaw, Langford and Ibby are not guaranteed that their scholarships will be renewed. Typically it is just done, but as was mentioned by someone earlier in the thread it will soon be a fact that BB will offer players a 4yr scholarship that can not be taken away unless the players gets into trouble..

I have seen this first hand in softball and baseball.. the coach will get as many verbals as he can get then.. turn to the bench warmers and tell them it is time to move on that they will not renew their scholarship.. It is a fact of life.. not saying it is right but it is an option Groce has in his favor..

So if Finke commits we take him, if Austin or Lyle commits we take them and then we wait and see.. IMO if O'Mara contacts us again they don't take him but if Cliff calls then I think we have seen the end of these players.. If I either of them I would be packing now because they will be further down the bench next year. Groce will play his guys as trys to build this program up.. I say he might just take 4 this year if the cards fall in place.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:34 PM   #17625
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Yeah i forgot hill but CA just isnt going to happen so I wouldnt take to much stock in him. I would say 98% he goes to MSU.
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Yes, but...

Finke/CA is a timing issue. Unless things have radically changed (doubtful), Alexander isn't close to pulling the trigger and, even if he is, we're in third. If Finke decides to commit and Groce says let's wait, what do you think is gonna happen? Finke's gonna walk. I highly, highly doubt Groce will let that happen.

Austin: (directed to the prev. poster) needs to demonstrate PG proficiency and a reasonable outside shot. If he can do both, he may climb our PG prospects ladder. Until then, he's where he should be (behind Lyle, Zabo & Mitchell).
Understandable.

However, leave it to Groce .......................
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