KenPom preseason rankings are up - #57 Illinois projected to go 15-15 (7-11)

Illest · Nov 13, 2011, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

If you look at the histogram the chance of winning 15 is signficantly less than winning 17. The chance to win 14 is significantly less than winning 18. I think 16 is their modal prediction. I don't know enough about statistics to properly define what I am trying to say but the data looks skewed toward the pessimistic case.

You get skewness if the expected win total doesn't land squarely on a whole number. My bigger issue with the distributions of projected records is that I don't know how much they account for uncertainty about the quality of a team in addition to uncertainty about how many games a team of a certain quality will win.

danielb927 · Nov 13, 2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illest

You get skewness if the expected win total doesn't land squarely on a whole number. My bigger issue with the distributions of projected records is that I don't know how much they account for uncertainty about the quality of a team in addition to uncertainty about how many games a team of a certain quality will win.

Probably not much, I would think.

DaytonIllini · Nov 13, 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illini70math

The more important point to keep in mind is that this is an extremely marginal use of statistics for prediction purposes. The results cannot be more accurate than the input data, and the input data consists largely of wild guesses.

Statistical prediction works very well with certain types of data. You can predict mechanical failure rates very accurately over large data sets because the historical data you use to make your predictions is based on stable and measurable tendencies. If production standards are carefully monitored, one rivet is a lot like another. That is what makes predictive statistics work in that type of situation.

Plainly how we do this season will have a lot to do with individual performances by various players, and there is no basis for predictions of the type I mentioned above. Neither you nor I nor Weber nor Kenpom knows how Meyers Leonard will do this season, for example. But it's not just Meyers. How will Tracy Abrams do? How will Brandon Paul do? Without sufficient relevant and valid input data, predictive statistics amounts to pure guesswork in college basketball. That's why the correlations between predictions and what actually happens is not very high. Remember the predictions for how well we would do last season? Someone forgot to tell UIC...

GIGO

Illini70math · Nov 13, 2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaytonIllini

GIGO

Exactly.

Funny stuff: there was a Peegs poster today pointing out that IU was ranked #24 in the RPI to start the day. Of course so were about 100 other teams (including UI), as he admitted!

Best rankings: Duquesne, Belmont, and South Alabama were ranking #7, #10, and #21 with matching 0-1 records. Stranger still, Army was ranked #22 with a record of 0-2. I think the RPI hasn't quite settled in yet!

TEYPAY · Nov 15, 2011, 11:11 AM

2-0 and we go from 54 to 56??????? Still early.

danielb927 · Nov 15, 2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEYPAY

2-0 and we go from 54 to 56??????? Still early.

When you play teams ranked in the 330s out of 345, you have to really blow them out to see any move upwards in the rankings. Just playing the game alone is gonna drop you 9 times out of 10.

TEYPAY · Nov 17, 2011, 09:21 AM

Maybe it's only me (and I know it's early) but I can't help but check this and see - haven't played since Monday and down to #58! Iona - who hasn't played a game - is ahead of us......

Illini70math · Nov 17, 2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEYPAY

Maybe it's only me (and I know it's early) but I can't help but check this and see - haven't played since Monday and down to #58! Iona - who hasn't played a game - is ahead of us......

Sure, they haven't played, but they looked really good doing it!

TEYPAY · Nov 17, 2011, 09:26 AM

Purdue - remember them - they beat "High Point" by 2 - they are 2-0 and ranked #12???

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Nov 17, 2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEYPAY

Maybe it's only me (and I know it's early) but I can't help but check this and see - haven't played since Monday and down to #58! Iona - who hasn't played a game - is ahead of us......

They are beating Purdue late in the first half down in San Juan.

zoggle101 · Nov 17, 2011, 03:35 PM

How'd Lamont "momo" Jones play for Iona? He was a big loss albeit not huge for Shaun Millers Wildcats. The only other things I know about Iona is they make the tournament most years and they share the same nickname as St. Mary's who Klee loves. Rob Jones is a killer and not like his father who really was a killer. I mentioned Jones transfer a couple of times last year iirc.

TEYPAY · Nov 18, 2011, 07:33 AM

Go 3-0 and we are now down to #60??? Hopefully at this pace we can finish dead last (and go undefeated!):laugh:

Illest · Nov 18, 2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEYPAY

Go 3-0 and we are now down to #60??? Hopefully at this pace we can finish dead last (and go undefeated!):laugh:

The system bases rankings on the final score, not wins and losses. If you don't think margin of victory is an important signal about a team's quality, I direct your attention to the football team's 6-0 start.

4LaCosaNostra · Nov 18, 2011, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illest

The system bases rankings on the final score, not wins and losses. If you don't think margin of victory is an important signal about a team's quality, I direct your attention to the football team's 6-0 start.

then a lot of bcs schools should be slipping-otoh- duke 1 point over belmont- purdue back to back close wins- pitt losing to LBS and michigan 5 point win over WIU.. a lot of close / almost upsets so far this year

TEYPAY · Nov 18, 2011, 10:30 AM

Purdue is #14!!!! Michigan is #48. Pitt is #16. I know there is a lot that goes into it. I just think it shows that early rankings (with whatever system you use) are not that meaningful. I would rather win 10 games by 3 points than win 2 by 30 and lose the other 8 (again - I know more goes into than that). In all honesty, probably early in the season, the coaches / writers polls are probably more accuate. In football, the BCS doesn't even come out until 1/3 or so into the sesaon?

Future Walk-On · Nov 21, 2011, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEYPAY

Purdue is #14!!!! Michigan is #48. Pitt is #16. I know there is a lot that goes into it. I just think it shows that early rankings (with whatever system you use) are not that meaningful. I would rather win 10 games by 3 points than win 2 by 30 and lose the other 8 (again - I know more goes into than that). In all honesty, probably early in the season, the coaches / writers polls are probably more accuate. In football, the BCS doesn't even come out until 1/3 or so into the sesaon?

More goes into it.....

JK. I don't look at it unless Illinois is high....then I brag to my friend from Columbia (Mizzou fan) and can't explain why we are high.

ill07 · Nov 21, 2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielb927

Another bit of info from Pomeroy's blog:

Quote:

So beginning this season, you’ll need to pay $20 per year to access the data on the site. What does your subscription get? Well, for starters, you should know that the main ratings page and the blog will still be freely available to the public. However, if you want to drill down into team details or see any of the other information that brings insight to your college hoops experience, you’ll need to subscribe. And while the blog will still be on the free side, much of its content will refer to stuff behind the pay wall.

Yuck. KenPom's stuff is fun to look at for sh!ts-n-giggles, but I could think of better ways to spend $20. More power to him though, if he can get people to pay... He'd be better off with ads IMO though.

illineye2 · Nov 21, 2011, 08:06 AM

I take about as much stock in this rating system,as any other one.SCRAP!

ChicagoJoe · Nov 21, 2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

The system bases rankings on the final score, not wins and losses.

It doesn't. It bases the rankings on offensive and defensive efficiency, with a strength of schedule component thrown in.

Quote:

In all honesty, probably early in the season, the coaches / writers polls are probably more accurate.

Pomeroy admits as much, though by the end of the season, he's more accurate.

Illest · Nov 21, 2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoJoe

It doesn't. It bases the rankings on offensive and defensive efficiency, with a strength of schedule component thrown in.

Ok, technically I was imprecise. Yes, there's a strength of schedule adjustment, and adjustments for where games were played, when they were played, etc. Yes, he uses defensive and offensive efficiencies as an intermediate calculation, which requires information about pace.

However, at its essence, it's a Pythagorean rating system, and the fundamental statistic for a pure Pythagorean rating system is the ratio of points scored to points allowed. That's what I was getting at.

NV Illini 74 · Nov 21, 2011, 10:04 AM

Just to show how messed up RPI ratings can be in the early going, CBS Sportsline hase the Illini at RPI #251 and a SOS of 303 (out of 343) after a 3-0 start.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ngs/rpi/index2

Pretty funny stuff. Hope it PO's our guys and they take care of business vs Richmond.

illynifan34 · Nov 21, 2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illest

Ok, technically I was imprecise. Yes, there's a strength of schedule adjustment, and adjustments for where games were played, when they were played, etc. Yes, he uses defensive and offensive efficiencies as an intermediate calculation, which requires information about pace.

However, at its essence, it's a Pythagorean rating system, and the fundamental statistic for a pure Pythagorean rating system is the ratio of points scored to points allowed. That's what I was getting at.

So what you're saying is that anyone running the "triangle" offense or a triangle and 2 defense will do best in his ratings?

Illini70math · Nov 21, 2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illest

Ok, technically I was imprecise. Yes, there's a strength of schedule adjustment, and adjustments for where games were played, when they were played, etc. Yes, he uses defensive and offensive efficiencies as an intermediate calculation, which requires information about pace.

However, at its essence, it's a Pythagorean rating system, and the fundamental statistic for a pure Pythagorean rating system is the ratio of points scored to points allowed. That's what I was getting at.

I never trusted that Pythagorean thing. I know it's got to be wrong. We just haven't found the right triangle yet.

orangekrush117 · Nov 21, 2011, 10:10 AM

There's a team who is 0-4 ranked ahead of us. I'm pretty sure it means next to nothing at this point in the season.

TEYPAY · Nov 21, 2011, 10:20 AM

However, the 3 wins we have and the 4 losses they have do count!

Nov 15, 2011, 11:11 AM	#105
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	2-0 and we go from 54 to 56??????? Still early.

Nov 17, 2011, 09:21 AM	#107
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	Maybe it's only me (and I know it's early) but I can't help but check this and see - haven't played since Monday and down to #58! Iona - who hasn't played a game - is ahead of us......

Nov 17, 2011, 09:26 AM	#109
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	Purdue - remember them - they beat "High Point" by 2 - they are 2-0 and ranked #12???

Nov 17, 2011, 03:35 PM	#111
zoggle101 Location: Spfld, IL Posts: 4,410	How'd Lamont "momo" Jones play for Iona? He was a big loss albeit not huge for Shaun Millers Wildcats. The only other things I know about Iona is they make the tournament most years and they share the same nickname as St. Mary's who Klee loves. Rob Jones is a killer and not like his father who really was a killer. I mentioned Jones transfer a couple of times last year iirc.

Nov 18, 2011, 07:33 AM	#112
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	Go 3-0 and we are now down to #60??? Hopefully at this pace we can finish dead last (and go undefeated!):laugh:

Nov 18, 2011, 10:30 AM	#115
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	Purdue is #14!!!! Michigan is #48. Pitt is #16. I know there is a lot that goes into it. I just think it shows that early rankings (with whatever system you use) are not that meaningful. I would rather win 10 games by 3 points than win 2 by 30 and lose the other 8 (again - I know more goes into than that). In all honesty, probably early in the season, the coaches / writers polls are probably more accuate. In football, the BCS doesn't even come out until 1/3 or so into the sesaon?

Nov 21, 2011, 08:06 AM	#118
illineye2 Banned Location: Lockport il. Posts: 263	I take about as much stock in this rating system,as any other one.SCRAP!

Nov 21, 2011, 10:04 AM	#121
NV Illini 74 Posts: 5,279	Just to show how messed up RPI ratings can be in the early going, CBS Sportsline hase the Illini at RPI #251 and a SOS of 303 (out of 343) after a 3-0 start. http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ngs/rpi/index2 Pretty funny stuff. Hope it PO's our guys and they take care of business vs Richmond.

Nov 21, 2011, 10:10 AM	#124
orangekrush117 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,212	There's a team who is 0-4 ranked ahead of us. I'm pretty sure it means next to nothing at this point in the season.

Nov 21, 2011, 10:20 AM	#125
TEYPAY Location: Springfield Posts: 1,131	However, the 3 wins we have and the 4 losses they have do count!