Could we let Banks go now?

Groundhogday · Sep 30, 2012, 10:50 PM

Below are the S&P defensive rankings for Illinois, Cincinnati and Toledo from 2010 to 2012 (F/+ for defensive units not available until later in the season).

2012 (4 games)
18-Cincinnati
49-Illinois
87-Toledo

2011
11-Illinois
39-Cincinnati
43-Toledo

2010
21-Illinois
62-Toledo
95-Cincinnati

Comment: YES, it is still very early but there is some indication that (a) Cincy is better off without Banks; (b) Toledo is worse off defensively without Beckman, Ward, Nichols and Clink; and (c) the 2011 Toledo defense, despite suffering numerous injuries, was better than the 2012 Illinois defense.

It may just be that we would be better off with the following mid-season changes: (1) fire Banks; (2) promote Paul Nichols from Dir. of Player Personnel (co-DC/safeties coach at Toledo in 2011); (3) let Ward/Beckman/Nichols coordinate the defense. Yes, this is a radical move but if Banks has lost the defense it might be the only way to save the season. Then Beckman can search for a better DC in the off season.

Despite the loss of Jenkins to the NFL, multiple OL (injuries and eligibility), and Nate to injury, our offense is pretty much on par with our offense at the end of last season. I don't see how coordinator changes are going to compensate for our OL problems, and Gonzales/Beatty at least bring strong recruiting to the table (Banks has done nothing on that front so far).

Yes, this is crazy talk but sometimes desperate situations require desperate measures. If Wisconsin can fire a well respected OL coach 2 games into the season (ostensibly because he has lost the respect of the OL), then we could put Banks out to pasture for the same reason.

Possible? Or crazy?

Groundhogday · Sep 30, 2012, 11:00 PM

For those unfamiliar with Paul Nichols:

Year_____School (position)
2012-____Illinois (director of player personnel)
2009-11__Toledo (co-defensive coordinator/safeties)
2006-08__Marshall (cornerbacks, 2007-08; secondary, 2006)
2004-05__Ohio State (graduate assistant)
2000-03__Davidson (all-conference QB)

http://www.fightingillini.com/sports...ls_paul00.html

Hoppy2105 · Sep 30, 2012, 11:05 PM

Very Possible. Not Crazy.

I could probably be the DC and give up no more points than Banks is. If you are going to do it, do it early. It's his job, if he doesn't do it well, he has to go. Do we give him Wisconsin though to try and turn it around?

Also, we talk about coaches needing "their" players. Does Banks have "his" players? It seems we have 7 guys in coverage A LOT yet there is always an open opposing receiver out there. Does our current defense just not know how to drop into coverage? Is that why we are recruiting so many DBs and LB/DB hybrids? If so, could Banks get better?

I hate switching between coaches so quickly but man this is going to be tough if we have to wait 3 years for Banks to get his own guys.

Groundhogday · Sep 30, 2012, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy2105

I could probably be the DC and give up no more points than Banks is. If you are going to do it, do it early. It's his job, if he doesn't do it well, he has to go. Do we give him Wisconsin though to try and turn it around?

It all depends upon whether Banks has lost the confidence of the defensive players. That is Beckman's call, but it sure looks that way from the outside. If he has lost the defense, there is no point in waiting another week. We may as well get going on the transition sooner rather than later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoppy2105

Also, we talk about coaches needing "their" players. Does Banks have "his" players? It seems we have 7 guys in coverage A LOT yet there is always an open opposing receiver out there. Does our current defense just not know how to drop into coverage? Is that why we are recruiting so many DBs and LB/DB hybrids? If so, could Banks get better?

As for having his guys, I really don't see an excuse given the talent he does have available. The guys should at least be playing hard and fast, and not looking confused half the time. This is Banks' 6th season as a DC (co-DC at Cincy) and in that time he has had 3 horrible defenses, two solid defenses (top 50 F/+), and this year's melt down. If the up side is a top-50 defense and the down side is horrible, is it worth hanging on to him? On the plus side, Beckman, Ward, Nichols and Clink all coached together for three years at Toledo so it probably wouldn't be hard to get everyone on the same page.

illini90017 · Sep 30, 2012, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

Below are the S&P defensive rankings for Illinois, Cincinnati and Toledo from 2010 to 2012 (F/+ for defensive units not available until later in the season).

2012 (4 games)
18-Cincinnati
49-Illinois
87-Toledo

2011
11-Illinois
39-Cincinnati
43-Toledo

2010
21-Illinois
62-Toledo
95-Cincinnati

Comment: YES, it is still very early but there is some indication that (a) Cincy is better off without Banks; (b) Toledo is worse off defensively without Beckman, Ward, Nichols and Clink; and (c) the 2011 Toledo defense, despite suffering numerous injuries, was better than the 2012 Illinois defense.

It may just be that we would be better off with the following mid-season changes: (1) fire Banks; (2) promote Paul Nichols from Dir. of Player Personnel (co-DC/safeties coach at Toledo in 2011); (3) let Ward/Beckman/Nichols coordinate the defense. Yes, this is a radical move but if Banks has lost the defense it might be the only way to save the season. Then Beckman can search for a better DC in the off season.

Despite the loss of Jenkins to the NFL, multiple OL (injuries and eligibility), and Nate to injury, our offense is pretty much on par with our offense at the end of last season. I don't see how coordinator changes are going to compensate for our OL problems, and Gonzales/Beatty at least bring strong recruiting to the table (Banks has done nothing on that front so far).

Yes, this is crazy talk but sometimes desperate situations require desperate measures. If Wisconsin can fire a well respected OL coach 2 games into the season (ostensibly because he has lost the respect of the OL), then we could put Banks out to pasture for the same reason.

Possible? Or crazy?

+1

Read and react? Isnt that what we had with Disch/Mallory? We are getting worse every week... Let's do something about it.

illini90017 · Sep 30, 2012, 11:26 PM

One more thing... VK changed this defense from wk 1. Dont tell
me new coaching staff needs more time..

Groundhogday · Sep 30, 2012, 11:32 PM

From looking at John Jancek's bio (current Cincy DC), I wonder if he wasn't behind the improvement in their defense last season. That might explain why Banks jumped to Illinois. Jancek certainly looks far more qualified than Banks. Jancek's coaching mentor is Brian Van Gorder (played and coached under him at Grand Valley, coached under him at Wayne State.)

John Jancek, current U of Cincy DC
2010-11__Cincinnati, co-DC/LB
2005-09__Georgia, LB(co-DC in 2009)
2003-04__Central Michigan, DL (’03), DC (’04)
1999-02__Grand Valley State, DC/LB
1996-98__Hillsdale, DC
1996_____Central Florida, interim DT coach, winter/spring
1992-94__Wayne State, DC
1991_____Grand Valley State, Graduate Assistant

ChiIllini05 · Oct 1, 2012, 12:10 AM

I couldn't agree more GHD. Besides the fact that Banks seems to be woefully inadequate, a staff shakeup could perhaps inject at least a little life into a listless and apathetic defense.

bdukes · Oct 1, 2012, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illini90017

One more thing... VK changed this defense from wk 1. Dont tell
me new coaching staff needs more time..

I agree. VK had an immediate impact on the defense. VK's departure was a huge disappointment to me, and my season tickets nearly went with him. I keep telling myself that I need give the new staff a chance to prove themselves.

I understand that there is often a dowturn with new coaches and their new way of doing things, but come on, thus far this year, the defense seems to have gone through the floor.

How many starters beyond Whitney Mercilus were lost from last year to cause such a dramatic downturn.

Groundhogday · Oct 1, 2012, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdukes

How many starters beyond Whitney Mercilus were lost from last year to cause such a dramatic downturn.

Mercilus (DE), Ian Thomas (LB), Trulon Henry (S/LB), Tavon Wilson (S/CB)

Plus Sanni and Hull played for the first time yesterday and Hawthorne has been less than full speed due to injuries. So perhaps we lost 6 of 11 starters from last year's unit (including two high draft picks), plus a key reserve Bates.

Our losses were significant and there is little incoming talent ready to replace the guys lost. But I'm not sure that explains the very tentative play, ongoing confusion and loss of confidence.

AHSIllini32 · Oct 1, 2012, 05:11 AM

Could we? Sure, but as you have pointed out that doesn't seem to be Beckman's MO. I think the alternative you presented would be an upgrade but I'm not sure what the odds are that it actually happens.

Also, something else that your original post shows is that the Toledo defense was improving with Beckman and co. at the helm. With how badly their season went in 2009 I'm assuming their defensive ranking was worse than 68 and if that assumption is correct then they would have improved defensively every year under Beckman and have now slipped back again.

EDIT: Indeed that assumption would be correct as Toledo's S&P ranking for 2009 was 111th (UI - 87th). Looking at that, Beckman's D's at Toledo took some significant jumps in a pretty offense-dominated conference.

One final note, UNC's D checks in at #68 with a much easier schedule than we have had.

AHSIllini32 · Oct 1, 2012, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

Mercilus (DE), Ian Thomas (LB), Trulon Henry (S/LB), Tavon Wilson (S/CB)

Plus Sanni and Hull played for the first time yesterday and Hawthorne has been less than full speed due to injuries. So perhaps we lost 6 of 11 starters from last year's unit (including two high draft picks), plus a key reserve Bates.

Our losses were significant and there is little incoming talent ready to replace the guys lost. But I'm not sure that explains the very tentative play, ongoing confusion and loss of confidence.

Tavon had his 2nd pick in his first 4 NFL games yesterday for the Pats...dude was a MAJOR part of our defensive success in '10 and '11.

ctblaisdell83 · Oct 1, 2012, 05:25 AM

If the defensive players have tuned out Banks but not the other coaches, then I think this is viable. If the players have tuned out all the coaches (staging a sort of revolt), then I don't think you can make this move without compromising the entire coaching staff.

In any event I think Beckman will show loyalty to Banks for the season, unless Banks has alienated Beckman or others on staff.

I could see Beckman taking away some of Banks' responsibilities if he's lost confidence in him. And unless there's a turnaround, I can't see Banks making it to year 2

Thacher_H_Guild · Oct 1, 2012, 06:27 AM

I wouldn't say for sure that any coach in particular MUST go, but Beckman needs to figure out why they are unorganized yet predictable in what they are trying to do defensively. Whatever he needs to do to figure that out should be job #1.

txillini · Oct 1, 2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctblaisdell83

If the defensive players have tuned out Banks but not the other coaches, then I think this is viable. If the players have tuned out all the coaches (staging a sort of revolt), then I don't think you can make this move without compromising the entire coaching staff.

In any event I think Beckman will show loyalty to Banks for the season, unless Banks has alienated Beckman or others on staff.

I could see Beckman taking away some of Banks' responsibilities if he's lost confidence in him. And unless there's a turnaround, I can't see Banks making it to year 2

Agreed. They are definitely revolting against Banks, but I don't know if it is JUST Banks. I doubt beckman will dump him during the season either way, though I wish he would. He's going to need to start working on his résumé soon, though.

quhawks12 · Oct 1, 2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

It may just be that we would be better off with the following mid-season changes: (1) fire Banks; (2) promote Paul Nichols from Dir. of Player Personnel (co-DC/safeties coach at Toledo in 2011); (3) let Ward/Beckman/Nichols coordinate the defense. Yes, this is a radical move but if Banks has lost the defense it might be the only way to save the season. Then Beckman can search for a better DC in the off season.

Yes, this is crazy talk but sometimes desperate situations require desperate measures. If Wisconsin can fire a well respected OL coach 2 games into the season (ostensibly because he has lost the respect of the OL), then we could put Banks out to pasture for the same reason.

Possible? Or crazy?

Wow...I had not thought of this but it sure makes a lot of sense. It makes the Nichols hire a very interesting one now. Not sure this will go down in season but it sounds like it is a real possibility this off-season.

Personally I think Banks and Beatty have been horrible this year. The play calling on both sides has been completely out of whack. Our tendencies are extremely readable which gives the other team plenty to prepare with and we have made ZERO adjustments from game 1.

illynifan34 · Oct 1, 2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txillini

Agreed. They are definitely revolting against Banks, but I don't know if it is JUST Banks. I doubt beckman will dump him during the season either way, though I wish he would. He's going to need to start working on his résumé soon, though.

I am currently on the Tim Beckman will get this turned around bandwagon, and I think he needs time to get players in that will respect him (I think very few of them do, that Pocic comment really pissed me off, he clearly doesn't respect the fans and I don't think a TB player says that crap). However, if there isn't a change on the defensive side of the ball either at the top (DC) or with the play calling by August 2013, TB will be losing support fast.

txillini · Oct 1, 2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illynifan34

I am currently on the Tim Beckman will get this turned around bandwagon, and I think he needs time to get players in that will respect him (I think very few of them do, that Pocic comment really pissed me off, he clearly doesn't respect the fans and I don't think a TB player says that crap). However, if there isn't a change on the defensive side of the ball either at the top (DC) or with the play calling by August 2013, TB will be losing support fast.

I'm starting to fall off that bandwagon and I hate it. What I can't figure out is why they players don't respect him. There seems to be something going on that we can't see as Beckman certainly came in and said the right things. The players seemed to respect him at first. What happened?

AHSIllini32 · Oct 1, 2012, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txillini

I'm starting to fall off that bandwagon and I hate it. What I can't figure out is why they players don't respect him. There seems to be something going on that we can't see as Beckman certainly came in and said the right things. The players seemed to respect him at first. What happened?

Let's pump the brakes on the whole mutiny thing. We have absolutely nothing to base saying "the players don't respect him" on.

BexleyIllini · Oct 1, 2012, 08:20 AM

Which other coaches should be feeling the hot seat? Special teams have been atrocious and I thought Tim Salem was supposed to be wizard in this area. Should he be feeling the heat?

Groundhogday · Oct 1, 2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Tavon had his 2nd pick in his first 4 NFL games yesterday for the Pats...dude was a MAJOR part of our defensive success in '10 and '11.

I agree. There has been a lot of hype about Hawthorne and Green (recruiting rankings & speed), but Tavon was by far our best DB (corner and safety) the past two years.

quhawks12 · Oct 1, 2012, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BexleyIllini

Which other coaches should be feeling the hot seat? Special teams have been atrocious and I thought Tim Salem was supposed to be wizard in this area. Should he be feeling the heat?

No lack of depth kills special teams. It's hard for me to see JB, DY5 (blocking not returning kicks), Lankford, Green, Thomas, and most the other starters playing. We just don't have the depth right now to excel at special teams. But they will be improved. Give the special teams a little time.

Davis actually had a nice little 10 yard PR later in the game which is what we all hoped to see more of instead of the muffed punt.

quhawks12 · Oct 1, 2012, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhogday

I agree. There has been a lot of hype about Hawthorne and Green (recruiting rankings & speed), but Tavon was by far our best DB (corner and safety) the past two years.

Agreed. Was GREAT against the run and quick screens as well.

Groundhogday · Oct 1, 2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

Let's pump the brakes on the whole mutiny thing. We have absolutely nothing to base saying "the players don't respect him" on.

Media statements have certainly hinted at a problem.

Groundhogday · Oct 1, 2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHSIllini32

One final note, UNC's D checks in at #68 with a much easier schedule than we have had.

Yes, VK hasn't been the miracle worker down there that he was at Illinois. I wonder what the talent situation is like at UNC with the sanctions, etc...

Sep 30, 2012, 11:00 PM	#2
Groundhogday Posts: 18,074	For those unfamiliar with Paul Nichols: Year_____School (position) 2012-____Illinois (director of player personnel) 2009-11__Toledo (co-defensive coordinator/safeties) 2006-08__Marshall (cornerbacks, 2007-08; secondary, 2006) 2004-05__Ohio State (graduate assistant) 2000-03__Davidson (all-conference QB) http://www.fightingillini.com/sports...ls_paul00.html __________________ ONLY ORANGE!

Sep 30, 2012, 11:05 PM	#3
Hoppy2105 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 220	Very Possible. Not Crazy. I could probably be the DC and give up no more points than Banks is. If you are going to do it, do it early. It's his job, if he doesn't do it well, he has to go. Do we give him Wisconsin though to try and turn it around? Also, we talk about coaches needing "their" players. Does Banks have "his" players? It seems we have 7 guys in coverage A LOT yet there is always an open opposing receiver out there. Does our current defense just not know how to drop into coverage? Is that why we are recruiting so many DBs and LB/DB hybrids? If so, could Banks get better? I hate switching between coaches so quickly but man this is going to be tough if we have to wait 3 years for Banks to get his own guys. __________________ _\|_ --X-X-(_)-X-X-- /...........\|...........\ /.............\|.............\ /...............\|...............\

Sep 30, 2012, 11:32 PM	#7
Groundhogday Posts: 18,074	From looking at John Jancek's bio (current Cincy DC), I wonder if he wasn't behind the improvement in their defense last season. That might explain why Banks jumped to Illinois. Jancek certainly looks far more qualified than Banks. Jancek's coaching mentor is Brian Van Gorder (played and coached under him at Grand Valley, coached under him at Wayne State.) John Jancek, current U of Cincy DC 2010-11__Cincinnati, co-DC/LB 2005-09__Georgia, LB(co-DC in 2009) 2003-04__Central Michigan, DL (’03), DC (’04) 1999-02__Grand Valley State, DC/LB 1996-98__Hillsdale, DC 1996_____Central Florida, interim DT coach, winter/spring 1992-94__Wayne State, DC 1991_____Grand Valley State, Graduate Assistant __________________ ONLY ORANGE! Last edited by Groundhogday; Sep 30, 2012 at 11:41 PM.

Oct 1, 2012, 12:10 AM	#8
ChiIllini05 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 191	I couldn't agree more GHD. Besides the fact that Banks seems to be woefully inadequate, a staff shakeup could perhaps inject at least a little life into a listless and apathetic defense. __________________ chicagosportstown.com http://www.twitter.com/ChiSportsTown

Oct 1, 2012, 05:11 AM	#11
AHSIllini32 Posts: 6,985	Could we? Sure, but as you have pointed out that doesn't seem to be Beckman's MO. I think the alternative you presented would be an upgrade but I'm not sure what the odds are that it actually happens. Also, something else that your original post shows is that the Toledo defense was improving with Beckman and co. at the helm. With how badly their season went in 2009 I'm assuming their defensive ranking was worse than 68 and if that assumption is correct then they would have improved defensively every year under Beckman and have now slipped back again. EDIT: Indeed that assumption would be correct as Toledo's S&P ranking for 2009 was 111th (UI - 87th). Looking at that, Beckman's D's at Toledo took some significant jumps in a pretty offense-dominated conference. One final note, UNC's D checks in at #68 with a much easier schedule than we have had. Last edited by AHSIllini32; Oct 1, 2012 at 05:19 AM.

Sep 30, 2012, 10:50 PM	#1
Groundhogday Posts: 18,074	Below are the S&P defensive rankings for Illinois, Cincinnati and Toledo from 2010 to 2012 (F/+ for defensive units not available until later in the season). 2012 (4 games) 18-Cincinnati 49-Illinois 87-Toledo 2011 11-Illinois 39-Cincinnati 43-Toledo 2010 21-Illinois 62-Toledo 95-Cincinnati Comment: YES, it is still very early but there is some indication that (a) Cincy is better off without Banks; (b) Toledo is worse off defensively without Beckman, Ward, Nichols and Clink; and (c) the 2011 Toledo defense, despite suffering numerous injuries, was better than the 2012 Illinois defense. It may just be that we would be better off with the following mid-season changes: (1) fire Banks; (2) promote Paul Nichols from Dir. of Player Personnel (co-DC/safeties coach at Toledo in 2011); (3) let Ward/Beckman/Nichols coordinate the defense. Yes, this is a radical move but if Banks has lost the defense it might be the only way to save the season. Then Beckman can search for a better DC in the off season. Despite the loss of Jenkins to the NFL, multiple OL (injuries and eligibility), and Nate to injury, our offense is pretty much on par with our offense at the end of last season. I don't see how coordinator changes are going to compensate for our OL problems, and Gonzales/Beatty at least bring strong recruiting to the table (Banks has done nothing on that front so far). Yes, this is crazy talk but sometimes desperate situations require desperate measures. If Wisconsin can fire a well respected OL coach 2 games into the season (ostensibly because he has lost the respect of the OL), then we could put Banks out to pasture for the same reason. Possible? Or crazy? __________________ ONLY ORANGE!

Sep 30, 2012, 11:26 PM	#6
illini90017 Posts: 18	One more thing... VK changed this defense from wk 1. Dont tell me new coaching staff needs more time..

Oct 1, 2012, 05:25 AM	#13
ctblaisdell83 Posts: 481	If the defensive players have tuned out Banks but not the other coaches, then I think this is viable. If the players have tuned out all the coaches (staging a sort of revolt), then I don't think you can make this move without compromising the entire coaching staff. In any event I think Beckman will show loyalty to Banks for the season, unless Banks has alienated Beckman or others on staff. I could see Beckman taking away some of Banks' responsibilities if he's lost confidence in him. And unless there's a turnaround, I can't see Banks making it to year 2

Oct 1, 2012, 06:27 AM	#14
Thacher_H_Guild Location: Champaign Posts: 2,270	I wouldn't say for sure that any coach in particular MUST go, but Beckman needs to figure out why they are unorganized yet predictable in what they are trying to do defensively. Whatever he needs to do to figure that out should be job #1.

Oct 1, 2012, 08:20 AM	#20
BexleyIllini Posts: 388	Which other coaches should be feeling the hot seat? Special teams have been atrocious and I thought Tim Salem was supposed to be wizard in this area. Should he be feeling the heat?