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Old May 24, 2013, 07:50 AM   #1
DaytonIllini
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Youth gang riots in the Swedish capital Stockholm have entered fifth straight night. Hundreds of mostly immigrant teenagers tore through the suburbs, smashing windows and burning cars in the country’s worst outbreak of violence in years.
http://rt.com/news/stockholm-violenc...eak-fires-671/

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Old May 24, 2013, 07:53 AM   #2
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A MAN seen ranting at a video camera moments after a soldier was beheaded in the street is Muslim convert Michael Adebolajo - who was known to MI5.
Michael Adebolaj, 28, had reportedly been looked at during probes into extremism in recent years - and was also known to hate preachers Anjem Choudary and Omar Bakri.

Tonight the soldier was named as Drummer Lee Rigby, 25, from the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...Adebolajo.html

Whether it's Fort Hood, Boston, Sweden or London there's a common thread here. It's time we called a spade a spade.

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Old May 24, 2013, 09:19 AM   #3
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Are you religious Dayton?
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Old May 24, 2013, 12:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by DaytonIllini View Post
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...Adebolajo.html

Whether it's Fort Hood, Boston, Sweden or London there's a common thread here. It's time we called a spade a spade.
There are plenty of islamic jihadists who want to murder civilians from free western civilizations. Only a few of them manage to achieve their murderous goals. It's difficult to distinguish between the ones with the ability and intent to kill and those who simply share the religion. That's why good intelligence can head off some of the evil plots.
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Old May 24, 2013, 01:00 PM   #5
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Are we saying all muslims are bad people with this thread?
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Old May 24, 2013, 01:12 PM   #6
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Are we saying all muslims are bad people with this thread?
Well "a spade is a spade!" Also, please note that the title was changed from the ironic, "Islam - religion of peace" to just "Islam".
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Old May 24, 2013, 01:32 PM   #7
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Are we saying all muslims are bad people with this thread?
I'm not but I am saying that the majority (not all, I said majority) of terrorist activity the west deals with originates in Muslims. I also recognize that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not engage in terrorist activity.
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Old May 24, 2013, 01:42 PM   #8
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Are we saying all muslims are bad people with this thread?
Islam by it's very nature is abusive to women and homosexuals. Obviously I don't think they are all terrorists or bad people. There is a large percentage of people that practice Islam, live in the West but don't share Western values of tolerance, acceptance and a secular society. Many people in other religions feel that way too but only one religion in the world is actively murdering people on an epic scale from one end of the planet to the other.

We lived through a Reformation in the West. It was tumultuous and lasted hundreds of years but if we don't recognize that we have a problem and that it is NOT isolated to a couple of nutcases, we are doomed. Europe is finding that their great experiment with multiculturalism has been a disaster.

They invited into their tolerant society a group of people that has become a huge minority that doesn't share their values. They have become afraid to point it out for fear of having some liberal fool tell you the obvious 'all Muslims are not bad' and create some mythological nonsense like Islamophobia (the very use of the word is absurd) or a racist (as if Islam were a race - again a non sequitur).

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Old May 24, 2013, 02:09 PM   #9
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Not racism, agreed.
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Old May 28, 2013, 12:54 PM   #10
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Islam by it's very nature is abusive to women and homosexuals.
That's hardly unique to Islam, they may be the largest group (depending on how you count) but by no means unique. Take a look out there at the abuses towards women by ultra orthodox jews in Israel. They are treated (at best) as second class citizens in the catholic church, mormon church, etc.

There is no doubt that islam as a religion has serious problems, but look at the history of every large religion. Just because Christianity has a reasonably clean slate right now, don't bet the farm on that continuing. History repeats itself, always. It's not an if but a when it happens, that another religion goes off the deep end. Even right now, take a look at some of the abuses of hindu's against muslims, or the LRA in Africa, or the Chinese against muslim Uighars.

This thread is just another reason I have no use for any organized religion. IMO they do more harm than good. Priest child sex abuse, murders, discrimination, churches using the shield of a non profit to operate as a for profit business , prosperity gospels, churches that are more concerned with their investment portfolio than they are with actually helping people, the westboro baptist church. The list goes on and on.

Use your head and find your own way to god.
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Old May 28, 2013, 01:44 PM   #11
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I have no use for any organized religion. IMO they do more harm than good.

Use your head and find your own way to god.
I've got no problem with the your second sentence I quoted. Some people can accomplish that themselves, others need help.

As far as religions causing more harm than good, I disagree. Religions do endless humanitarian good throughout the world that we never hear about (unless you are a member of the religion.) The scandals and fakers make news. It's kind of like civilization, it's mostly good but there is a small element that's really evil.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:20 PM   #12
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I've got no problem with the your second sentence I quoted. Some people can accomplish that themselves, others need help.

As far as religions causing more harm than good, I disagree. Religions do endless humanitarian good throughout the world that we never hear about (unless you are a member of the religion.) The scandals and fakers make news. It's kind of like civilization, it's mostly good but there is a small element that's really evil.
The bolded part is where I disagree, it's not a small element. It's just too widespread.

Just a brief and by no means even remotely complete list.

Priest child sex abuse.
The vatican bank
The mormon business empire
Prosperity gospel
Ultra orthodox jews
Muslims being abused in myammar
Uighars in China
Muslims in India
Budhists in Myanmar
The Lords Resistance Army
Scientology
The whole syrian mess is now sunni vs shia
Hezbollah
Hamas
Ministers from mega churches making multi millions, that's not about religion, that's about profit, pure and simple
Westboro baptist church
muslim vs hindu in India
anti-gay riots in france
more suni vs shia killing in Iraq
mosques being attacked and set on fire here in the US
denying gays the right to marry based solely on religion

If I wanted to spend even 10 more minutes on this, a google search would probably remind me of dozens more examples. Like I said, IMO organized religion does more harm than good.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:25 PM   #13
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The bolded part is where I disagree, it's not a small element. It's just too widespread.
You're just throwing anything and everything related to ANY religion in ANY part of the world into the same bucket. That makes no sense to me.

If you focus on a smaller subset (US or even all of North America), there is much more good than bad.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:32 PM   #14
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Ministers from mega churches making multi millions, that's not about religion, that's about profit, pure and simple
The poster-child for this would be Joel Osteen. While I find him extremely annoying, I have no problem with his methods. He draws NO SALARY from his church, but relies on the sales from his books to fund his lavish lifestyle. Is there a rule that ministers have to be poor?

Anyhow - it seems that we're getting a bit off track here :focus:
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:33 PM   #15
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You're just throwing anything and everything related to ANY religion in ANY part of the world into the same bucket. That makes no sense to me.

If you focus on a smaller subset (US or even all of North America), there is much more good than bad.
Umm, but Clemens and pizzaman were both very clearly talking about all organized religions and their net effect on the world. You can't just cherry pick the data (example: US or North America religious people only!) just to fit your argument. Well you can, but it doesn't help your cause in any way. Not just that, but I doubt it would take pizzaman long to create a list of similar length if he just focused on that specific geographic region or a sect of religion.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:37 PM   #16
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Umm, but Clemens and pizzaman were both very clearly talking about all organized religions and their net effect on the world. You can't just cherry pick the data (example: US or North America religious people only!) just to fit your argument. Well you can, but it doesn't help your cause in any way. Not just that, but I doubt it would take pizzaman long to create a list of similar length if he just focused on that specific geographic region or a sect of religion.
My point is that you just can't lump everything together because all "organized religion" is not created equal.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:46 PM   #17
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You're just throwing anything and everything related to ANY religion in ANY part of the world into the same bucket. That makes no sense to me.

If you focus on a smaller subset (US or even all of North America), there is much more good than bad.
I was intentional That I wasn't singling out any religion. I don't care what religion it is, my contention is that organized religion be it christianity, islam, hinduism, budhism etc. do more harm than good. The list of abuses by religion, any religion, is virtually endless. Throughout history, more people have died in the name of religion than any other single cause.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:47 PM   #18
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Umm, but Clemens and pizzaman were both very clearly talking about all organized religions and their net effect on the world. You can't just cherry pick the data (example: US or North America religious people only!) just to fit your argument. Well you can, but it doesn't help your cause in any way.
And, I'm not the one cherry picking here. His list is equivalent to someone saying that all sports are dangerous because football players get a bunch of concussions and basketball players tear a bunch of ACLs. As there are a ton of non-football/basketball sports, there are many organized religious groups who do a ton of good work in the US and around the world.
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:48 PM   #19
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The poster-child for this would be Joel Osteen. While I find him extremely annoying, I have no problem with his methods. He draws NO SALARY from his church, but relies on the sales from his books to fund his lavish lifestyle. Is there a rule that ministers have to be poor?

Anyhow - it seems that we're getting a bit off track here :focus:
http://tryingtofollow.com/2007/03/29...-about-wealth/

http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_money.htm
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Old May 28, 2013, 02:51 PM   #20
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My point is that you just can't lump everything together because all "organized religion" is not created equal.
Actually I think they are all created equal, it's what people do with them that makes them unequal. All religions have been and are currently guilty of an endless list of abuses.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:01 PM   #21
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The list of abuses by religion, any religion, is virtually endless. Throughout history, more people have died in the name of religion than any other single cause.
Substitute the word governments or civilizations for religion in your statement. It will still be true. People who belong to a religion aren't better or less abusive or even more humanitarian than people who don't belong to a religion. Humans are just imperfect life forms whether they believe in God or not.

Where we disagree is that I still maintain that religions do more good than bad. The list of good or bad either of us provide is endless. I fall on the side of religion is beneficial, you disagree.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:04 PM   #22
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Actually I think they are all created equal, it's what people do with them that makes them unequal.
I agree. It's not the religion, it's the people who make up the congregation and twist their "Holy book" into a mandate for whatever action they deem necessary.
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Old May 28, 2013, 05:25 PM   #23
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I agree. It's not the religion, it's the people who make up the congregation and twist their "Holy book" into a mandate for whatever action they deem necessary.
Which is another part of my dismissing organized religion, whatever for it may take. Primarily a bunch of hypocrites IMO. They have no problem banning gays from their churches but when then bible is quite clear about divorce, they allow divorced membership.

All the talk of cherry picking in this thread, yet no one has pointed out how religions cherry pick to suit their purposes.
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Old May 28, 2013, 05:42 PM   #24
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It's absurd to conflate a worldwide religion of over 1 billion adherents where by some studies as many as a quarter of them favor terror, half favor forced conversion, 80% favor death penalties for conversion, honor killings, sectarian violence and forced female genital mutilation with splinter groups, money grabbing and some of the other things mentioned.

I won't defend organized religion but one in particular is causing the vast majority of unrest in the world. To compare the Westboro Baptist idiots with beheadings, crucifixions, stonings, female circumcision, burkhas, lack of suffrance, homosexual murders, fatwahs, organized pedophilia on a massive basis is disingenuous at best.

Sure Christians have a bloody history but we are not still living in the 12th century. The acts I am talking about are occurring DAILY today.

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Old May 28, 2013, 06:12 PM   #25
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It's absurd to conflate a worldwide religion of over 1 billion adherents where by some studies as many as a quarter of them favor terror, half favor forced conversion, 80% favor death penalties for conversion, honor killings, sectarian violence and forced female genital mutilation with splinter groups, money grabbing and some of the other things mentioned.

I won't defend organized religion but one in particular is causing the vast majority of unrest in the world. To compare the Westboro Baptist idiots with beheadings, crucifixions, stonings, female circumcision, burkhas, lack of suffrance, homosexual murders, fatwahs, organized pedophilia on a massive basis is disingenuous at best.

Sure Christians have a bloody history but we are not still living in the 12th century. The acts I am talking about are occurring DAILY today.
You don't have to go back to the 12th century to find forced conversions to christianity, just go back to the early 20th century, right here in the US or as recent as in the last decade in other countries. Or for that matter people being killed because they refused to convert.

Just because christianity isn't currently extremely violent doesn't mean it won't (and probably will) happen again. History repeats itself, always.

But lets not leave out other religions, christians and muslims are being forced (and sometimes killed) to convert to budhism right now.

Muslims are the worst right now, but that scarcely justifies others doing the same, which they are and will continue to do. Just give it a few decades and some other religion will be just as bad if not worse.
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