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NCAA could not conclude academic violations in North Carolina case

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Old Jul 25, 2017, 08:46 PM   #1
Illini-Rule
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Update:
Infractions panel could not conclude academic violations in North Carolina case
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/...-carolina-case


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http://www.espn.com/college-sports/s...-academic-case

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Last edited by Dan; Oct 13, 2017 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Added updates
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 09:30 PM   #2
westcoastillini
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Revoke their titles and strip them of scholarships
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Old Jul 26, 2017, 09:09 AM   #3
ChiefIllini
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Revoke their titles and strip them of scholarships
After this, gather both the UI and UNC 2005 rosters, sans players that were involved in rule violations, make them replay the game and hand the trophy to the winner.


But seriously I hope something major comes from this. I get it wont affect them forever, but I dont more than a scholarship or two will be stripped, given the prominence of UNC basketball. Double standards are a cruel mistress.
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Old Jul 26, 2017, 09:53 AM   #4
Greensboro
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fyi...North Carolina Alumni Review story of case, begins page 3. Heads up, I was a bit disappointed it wasn't a woe is me portrayal I was hoping for.

http://www.carolinaalumnireview.com/...70708?pg=6#pg6
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Old Jul 26, 2017, 03:44 PM   #5
battle
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officer I wasn't going 90 in a 55, it was only 86.
in court 10 years later: the speed limit is now 70
I move to dismiss and I can't believe you have the gall to press charges
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Old Jul 27, 2017, 10:23 AM   #6
Calvin
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officer I wasn't going 90 in a 55, it was only 86.
in court 10 years later: the speed limit is now 70
I move to dismiss and I can't believe you have the gall to press charges
Not sure how this will play out, but it appears the NCAA is failing. The scandals at UNC, Louisville, etc., should be slam dunks (pardon the pun), but instead, the institutions don't seem to suffer much from the reputational damage, and would rather take shots at the NCAA cops. There's not much agreement on what constitutes cheating these days, and fans keep the money flowing as long as you win.
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Old Jul 27, 2017, 11:11 AM   #7
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Not sure how this will play out, but it appears the NCAA is failing. The scandals at UNC, Louisville, etc., should be slam dunks (pardon the pun), but instead, the institutions don't seem to suffer much from the reputational damage, and would rather take shots at the NCAA cops. There's not much agreement on what constitutes cheating these days, and fans keep the money flowing as long as you win.
+1, it also seems like the strategy is go hard on yourself initially for show, then after NCAA has filed there initial findings work your way back to we have already been punished and NCAA is the bad guy here overstepping their bounds.
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Old Jul 28, 2017, 10:23 AM   #8
kcib8130
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At the end of the day, its the players that really suffer. Bowl bans or tournament bans, possible transferring. University is A-OK though.
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Old Jul 28, 2017, 11:20 AM   #9
RedRocksIllini
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At the end of the day, its the players that really suffer. Bowl bans or tournament bans, possible transferring. University is A-OK though.
...or being given a fraudulent "education".
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Old Jul 29, 2017, 01:09 PM   #10
Calvin
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I just looked up admission applications for UNC, and despite all the scandals, applications are up for the 12th straight year.

That may explain why they're taking the approach that they are --it would seem that no one cares that the athletic dept is cheating.

Makes me wonder what an employer thinks when they see a UNC athletes resume though.
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Old Jul 29, 2017, 03:10 PM   #11
blmillini
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I just looked up admission applications for UNC, and despite all the scandals, applications are up for the 12th straight year.

That may explain why they're taking the approach that they are --it would seem that no one cares that the athletic dept is cheating.

Makes me wonder what an employer thinks when they see a UNC athletes resume though.
Serious question... why would athletic department cheating impact admissions applications?
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Old Jul 29, 2017, 03:16 PM   #12
VAIllini35
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Serious question... why would athletic department cheating impact admissions applications?
It wouldn't unless the state high school seniors seriously thought there was a ban coming that would affect their college experience. Clearly no one is too worried.
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Old Jul 29, 2017, 04:21 PM   #13
Illiini
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It was a department other than athletics that was cheating. Or at least the athletic department had plausible deniability. But they knew. Every faculty member knew.
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Old Jul 29, 2017, 08:15 PM   #14
Calvin
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It was a department other than athletics that was cheating. Or at least the athletic department had plausible deniability. But they knew. Every faculty member knew.
I'd go farther than that --if I knew a university was fraudulently representing graduates and their accomplishments, it would affect my confidence in an job applicant. I've never had a UNC athlete's resume cross my desk. On balance however, it appears this has had very little reputational damage.

Most large universities weather scandals. Missouri had a precipitous drop in applications after the race protests. Students may be more sensitive to that than academic fraud stemming from athletics, though.

Last edited by Calvin; Jul 29, 2017 at 08:15 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 08:14 AM   #15
RedRocksIllini
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I'd go farther than that --if I knew a university was fraudulently representing graduates and their accomplishments, it would affect my confidence in an job applicant. I've never had a UNC athlete's resume cross my desk. On balance however, it appears this has had very little reputational damage.

Most large universities weather scandals. Missouri had a precipitous drop in applications after the race protests. Students may be more sensitive to that than academic fraud stemming from athletics, though.
Given that UNC's argument is that this was not just an athletic perk but rather a normal part of the university experience available to all students, I won't consider any resumes that have North Carolina listed. By the university's own admission, a diploma from UNC is not only meaningless but represents a candidate that is willing to participate in fraud.
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 08:48 AM   #16
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Given that UNC's argument is that this was not just an athletic perk but rather a normal part of the university experience available to all students, I won't consider any resumes that have North Carolina listed. By the university's own admission, a diploma from UNC is not only meaningless but represents a candidate that is willing to participate in fraud.
An entirely fair point of view that holds someone accountable.

However, holding people accountable seems to be an outlier opinion these days. I suspect most people are pragmatic. For example, a person that's hired from their university before and liked the results, would look for other ways to spot an unprepared candidate. For whatever reason, this just doesn't resonate with the public as anything more than a blip/isolated issue, related mostly to sports.

I know I would be embarrassed to have one of the classes on my transcript, but I'm probably an outlier as well.
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 08:55 AM   #17
james81
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I'd go farther than that --if I knew a university was fraudulently representing graduates and their accomplishments, it would affect my confidence in an job applicant. I've never had a UNC athlete's resume cross my desk. On balance however, it appears this has had very little reputational damage.

Most large universities weather scandals. Missouri had a precipitous drop in applications after the race protests. Students may be more sensitive to that than academic fraud stemming from athletics, though.
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Given that UNC's argument is that this was not just an athletic perk but rather a normal part of the university experience available to all students, I won't consider any resumes that have North Carolina listed. By the university's own admission, a diploma from UNC is not only meaningless but represents a candidate that is willing to participate in fraud.
Maintaining perspective is one of the keys to success in life. On an academic level, UNC and U of I are more similar than different. It may come as a surprise but not every student, administrator, or faculty member knows much or cares about university athletics. I wouldn't be surprised if most U of I students couldn't name 2 members of the basketball team. Having said that, the UNC basketball program should be heavily penalized--but that has nothing to do with a med student or a professor of physics.
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 11:13 AM   #18
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Given that UNC's argument is that this was not just an athletic perk but rather a normal part of the university experience available to all students, I won't consider any resumes that have North Carolina listed. By the university's own admission, a diploma from UNC is not only meaningless but represents a candidate that is willing to participate in fraud.
What if this applicant did not take any classes form this program? Would you still not consider a candidate from this top university?

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Old Jul 31, 2017, 11:25 AM   #19
RedRocksIllini
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Maintaining perspective is one of the keys to success in life. On an academic level, UNC and U of I are more similar than different. It may come as a surprise but not every student, administrator, or faculty member knows much or cares about university athletics. I wouldn't be surprised if most U of I students couldn't name 2 members of the basketball team. Having said that, the UNC basketball program should be heavily penalized--but that has nothing to do with a med student or a professor of physics.
Um....according to UNC, this had nothing to do with athletics. Rather, it was a part of the standard UNC college experience. As long as they wish to maintain that perspective, I'm going to maintain mine.
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 11:29 AM   #20
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What if this applicant did not take any classes form this program? Would you still not consider a candidate from this top university?
I have to look at enough resumes that checking every class for every candidate is not an option. If the university wants to take the position that this is business as usual, there are plenty of other candidates from real universities to consider.
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Old Jul 31, 2017, 02:03 PM   #21
battle
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Which is why it is so hard for the NCAA to find a remedy for this. Their coaches may have been happy to receive the benefits of this cheating, but it was not their handiwork.

A proper remedy would likely involve revoking the University's academic accreditation, but they are likely too big to fail.
a fallacious excuse - implies that a person/service that does your HW, writes papers, and/or takes your tests for you is A-OK for athletes if it is available to non-athletes

when fake classes are created for athletes, its not as if others that want a basket-weaving class won't find out (frats) - you have to allow them in to keep the scam - the fake classes were simply around for so long (DECADES) that it grew. does not change that it was wrong/cheating by NCAA rules and any real accountability would be extremely harsh - death penalty for 3 years ... or no scholarships for 5 years ... or the same slap on the wrist Syracuse got ... or look the other way

Minny received penalties for their HW scandal

Handiwork!? cannot remember if it was in Report or was just hearsay - but UNC coaches not only knew for years but had a multi-sport meeting with PPT slides when the person "taking care of business" left/retired (dept head??)
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 07:06 AM   #22
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The fake classes were quite clearly not created for athletes. Most of the students "in" those classes were not athletes. Athletes definitely took advantage of them, but the athletic program did not create them.
I believe that the report says that the general student population enrolled after the athletes attendance was well established. The athletic department believed that general population attendance would help mask the real intent of the "degree". In most areas intent counts.
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 07:17 AM   #23
Calvin
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The fake classes were quite clearly not created for athletes. Most of the students "in" those classes were not athletes. Athletes definitely took advantage of them, but the athletic program did not create them.
I believe this is contrary to the findings. The classes were created for the athletes, but then were made available to everyone to cover it up. Then, as more fraternities found out about it, others started enrolling, which eventually led to issues as these joke classes became widely known.

NC has used that story to recreate the narrative more to their liking, i.e. they were always legitimate classes available to everyone.

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Which is why it is so hard for the NCAA to find a remedy for this.
The remedy is easy, but there's absolutely no will do so. You have to realize why the NCAA exists. To maximize profits to its member schools.

The PR function of enforcing rules is mostly for show, and a last resort to make it look like there's integrity, when a scandal breaks that needs some PR damage control.

Amateurism had wide acceptance for most of the university timeline, but has eroded to the point of being a joke. Pay and benefits exist in some form or another, and professional leagues await, with college bball and fball being primary training grounds.

Here's a thought experiment:
Let's say I'm a coveted academic student. What's to stop schools from bidding for my services with tuition, room, board, and stipend? We already know the answer to this. Nothing. Furthermore, would a school recruiting me object to me getting money from a relative to help attend their school, or support my success? Of course not. So why is it a problem in sports? Another question we already know the answer to. Payroll and the competitive market would quickly eat up the money that's already on the table.

IF the NCAA wanted to stop this (and it doesn't), Universities would authorize independent powers for monitoring, using reasonable rules of fair competition, with proven and that we know work. Universities would see significant fines, commensurate with violations. Coaches and players would receive bans from competition. Repeat offenders would be looking at particularly stiff penalties.

None of that is going to happen.

IMHO, the current rules put a heavy burden on people with integrity, who want to follow the rules, but struggle with how messed up the system is. But it is what it is, and that probably won't change for some time.
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 03:07 PM   #24
alaskaillini
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The fake AFAM classes date to the early 1990s. The woman responsible for the idea apparently believed the academic system unjustly discriminated against Afro-American students and she wanted to right that wrong. She set out to do so for all AFAM students. The athletics department quickly took advantage, but overall, more non-athletes than athletes took these courses.
Where did you find this info? I think that this is contrary to the Wainstein report.
The woman who started it was a huge basketball fan, and I think dated a former player.

Last edited by Dan; Aug 8, 2017 at 05:44 PM.
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Old Aug 1, 2017, 04:06 PM   #25
WhiteRhino
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The NCAA has never regulated academics.
That is not true. If they don't regulate academics, then why did they strip Memphis' wins for Derrick Rose cheating on his ACT exam. What did they penalize the University of Minnesota for? Why did Notre Dame football have to vacate wins during the 2012-2013 season?

Aren't those academic issues?
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