Baylor 82, Illinois 69 Postgame

[Deleted member 186590]

While it was great to see some of our guys really step up in the game when Kofi and Ayo were not able to generate the kind of offense they normally do— the biggest disappointment for me is the realization we’re not on the same level as Baylor. I had dreams of this team being a National title contender this year and now I don’t think we are. Anything can happen in the tourny, but it seems we’re not on the same level right now- it doesn’t mean we can’t get there by year end, but we need a leap, not just improvement.

both teams were off in a sloppy first half and we hung in there for 30 min, but when they got going we had no response. Even BU’s comments about watching the tape making him feel better was basically an admittance that -they are just way better than we are and we hung in for 30 min-type of realization on his part

it will be a fun season to watch with frustrations along the way no doubt- but this is not a 2005 or 1989 type season for us- which was what I was hoping for

 

[fulton steamer]

I promised myself after the game I would avoid this thread because of the game outcome and because I was sure that some of the comments would be overactive and tick me off more than the game.

Well,I kept my promise to myself for 48 hours and here I am. I am frustrated with some of the negative comments about Ayo, his shot selection and effort. I have been critical with regards to Ayo in the past, but not this game. He played hard. Baylor played the best perimeter defense I can ever remember seeing. Their defenders are interchangeable and this allowed them to easily switch when we attempted to run a weave or high ball screen offense.

Some have said that Ayo should have realized he was struggling with his shot and instead should have elevated the play of his teammates. Baylor’s defense was so stifling that everyone sucked except GB for the first half when he was channeling his Frosh year when Baylor was focusing on perimeter defense with Kofi on the pine.

The thing that worries me the most about the team is that Curbelo is the only player that can beat you off the dribble and get to the paint against an elite defensive team and when he gets there he doesn’t always make the correct decision because he is a freshman. My only Ayo criticism from the game, and he has to improve this skill for the NBA, is that against good teams he has trouble getting to the rim off the dribble in a half court set. Especially his left hand. I was disappointed in his ball handling last night. Additionally, Trent has to be able to beat people off the dribble. He was better at this as a Frosh compared to now.

Oh well, it is one game. It is my hope we learn lessons from this game and improve. Hopefully, we will get another shot at Baylor and we will be better prepared to handle their intense defensive pressure.

Sorry for the dissertation.

This is an excellent analysis. 100%.

 

[fulton steamer]

While it was great to see some of our guys really step up in the game when Kofi and Ayo were not able to generate the kind of offense they normally do— the biggest disappointment for me is the realization we’re not on the same level as Baylor. I had dreams of this team being a National title contender this year and now I don’t think we are. Anything can happen in the tourny, but it seems we’re not on the same level right now- it doesn’t mean we can’t get there by year end, but we need a leap, not just improvement.

both teams were off in a sloppy first half and we hung in there for 30 min, but when they got going we had no response. Even BU’s comments about watching the tape making him feel better was basically an admittance that -they are just way better than we are and we hung in for 30 min-type of realization on his part

it will be a fun season to watch with frustrations along the way no doubt- but this is not a 2005 or 1989 type season for us- which was what I was hoping for

Not yet.

 

[CurbeloYourEnthusiasm]

I wasn’t that disappointed by this game. Baylor is a FF team. They remind me of some of the great Villanova teams of the recent past. Great athletes, strong and quick. I think we got a bit overwhelmed by their athleticism.

As for us, I think Curbelo needs to be the PG full time with Ayo off the ball. Whether that means less minutes for DMW/Frazier, so be it. Curbelo gives the offense a special playmaker we don’t otherwise have. It’ll make us less stagnant. The weave to nowhere and Ayo iso’ing for a mid range jumper isn’t effective offense. Curbelo getting everyone involved will make us better IMO.

Hawkins flashed some nice things too. Giorgi was great. Giorgi is so skilled in the post, and as a passer I think you need him in there more. Negatives would be Kofi’s lack of development. I don’t see any post moves from him. He looks same as last year. I won’t blame him not being able to guard PnR bc very few guys his size can do it. We really need to play zone when Kofi is in. Keep Kofi in the paint.

I think one of our issues is we got 4 really good players (Giorgi, Kofi, Ayo, Curbelo) but they overlap. It’s hard to play all 4 of them at the same time. Giorgi/Kofi are 5s, and Ayo/Curbelo both are used to having the ball.

 

[rtbritt]

I wasn’t that disappointed by this game. Baylor is a FF team. They remind me of some of the great Villanova teams of the recent past. Great athletes, strong and quick. I think we got a bit overwhelmed by their athleticism.

As for us, I think Curbelo needs to be the PG full time with Ayo off the ball. Whether that means less minutes for DMW/Frazier, so be it. Curbelo gives the offense a special playmaker we don’t otherwise have. It’ll make us less stagnant. The weave to nowhere and Ayo iso’ing for a mid range jumper isn’t effective offense. Curbelo getting everyone involved will make us better IMO.

Hawkins flashed some nice things too. Giorgi was great. Giorgi is so skilled in the post, and as a passer I think you need him in there more. Negatives would be Kofi’s lack of development. I don’t see any post moves from him. He looks same as last year. I won’t blame him not being able to guard PnR bc very few guys his size can do it. We really need to play zone when Kofi is in. Keep Kofi in the paint.

I think one of our issues is we got 4 really good players (Giorgi, Kofi, Ayo, Curbelo) but they overlap. It’s hard to play all 4 of them at the same time. Giorgi/Kofi are 5s, and Ayo/Curbelo both are used to having the ball.

No way can you call Giorgi a really good player, and NOT mention Trent. No way is Trent not in the category of "really good players" if Giorgi is also there.

Also, Ayo has shown that he can play off the ball. Ayo is actually better catching the ball on the wing from a point and then going to work.

 

[FeelYourPaign]

Also, Ayo has shown that he can play off the ball. Ayo is actually better catching the ball on the wing from a point and then going to work.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm always disappointed when Ayo brings the ball up court. He can't pass to himself, after all.

 

[CurbeloYourEnthusiasm]

No way can you call Giorgi a really good player, and NOT mention Trent. No way is Trent not in the category of "really good players" if Giorgi is also there.

Also, Ayo has shown that he can play off the ball. Ayo is actually better catching the ball on the wing from a point and then going to work.

I was more talking about players that overlap at one position. It’s hard to play all 4 of them. And I see those 4 guys as our biggest difference makers. They all have a 1 on 1 advantage against their opponents whether it’s physical (size, speed, athleticism) (Curbelo/Kofi) or skill wise (Ayo/Giorgi)

I don’t think Frazier has an advantage over many players. He’s not as skilled of guard as say Giorgi is as skilled as a big man, and he doesn’t have any physical advantages over other guards either. I see special all around big man skills in Giorgi, special size in Kofi, special skill in Ayo, and special skill/athleticism in Curbelo. I don’t see a special skill or athleticism in Frazier

 

[alaskaillini]

I was more talking about players that overlap at one position. It’s hard to play all 4 of them. And I see those 4 guys as our biggest difference makers. They all have a 1 on 1 advantage against their opponents whether it’s physical (size, speed, athleticism) (Curbelo/Kofi) or skill wise (Ayo/Giorgi)

I don’t think Frazier has an advantage over many players. He’s not as skilled of guard as say Giorgi is as skilled as a big man, and he doesn’t have any physical advantages over other guards either. I see special all around big man skills in Giorgi, special size in Kofi, special skill in Ayo, and special skill/athleticism in Curbelo. I don’t see a special skill or athleticism in Frazier

I think you have a recency bias when comparing skill/athleticism of Trent and Giorgi. Giorgi was awesome in the Baylor game, but if you recall last season I think he may have missed more bunnies than he made. You are comparing Giorgi after one of his best performances in over a year, and Trent after one of his worst. Trent had to be athletic, speedy and skillful offensively his first two years because of his supporting cast. His role has changed. He is the one they look to for energy on defense, instead of offense. Think Frazier more deserving than you are giving him credit for. I seem to recall him almost singlehandedly carrying the team in a near upset of Gonzaga a couple of years ago, but he is not asked, expected or given the opportunity to do those kind of things anymore.

 

[Calvin]

I wasn’t that disappointed by this game. Baylor is a FF team.

+1

I think of Baylor and Gonzaga as favorites for the NC, with several teams in the next tier that might get to their level as the season progresses. Losing to an elite, experienced team at this stage of the season is probably a good thing for our development. Especially in a loaded BIG. Miller, Curbelo, and Hawkins logged a combined 52 minutes, and while we think of Kofi as a star, he's a soph that's relatively new to basketball. He struggled, with one of his rougher outings as an Illini. Don't discount the Ohio game either; between that game and the Baylor game, as a fan you should realize we have weaknesses that will have to improve if we're going to win a BIG championship.

Baylor has an identity on both ends, and were able to dial it up when we threatened them. We don't have that gear yet, that confidence and sense of how to operate as a unit when things get hard, and that's the difference. Underwood knows this, and the things we gotta fix to get there. Whether we improve enough to hang with them for 40 minutes remains to be seen, but there's a lot of season yet to come.

If we're a top-10 club, I'll still enjoy the season. But Baylor? That's how you get to a NC.

 

[pruman91]

I watched the replay this morning and a few things stood out that i didn't notice during the live game.....

1. Vital deserves an Oscar for his laydown against giorgi feigning an over the back in the 1st half...he was smiling as he got up...
2. One thing Baylor was doing on offense....when their guards were running by a screen , they would stop for a second at the screeners shoulder, then pop out for the pass, usually gaining a step on our defender.....
3. Their D always had contact with our O players....minimal contact, but it meant we were moving sideways or backwards on our first step with the ball.
4. # 24 Meyer had a great game and gave them a spark every time he came in...
5. We missed a lot of shots within 10 feet of the basket...many of those shots fell against earlier teams....Baylor's D had a lot to do with it but some were just missed or hurried up ,more than usual..

I imagine the coaching staff has been burning the midnight oil planning for puke and cleaning up the mistakes...Frazier or Curbelo need to bring the ball up and Ayo needs to play off the ball like last season...stop the dribbling 40 feet from the rim....jmho

 

[TheFameProtector]

The thing that worries me the most about the team is that Curbelo is the only player that can beat you off the dribble and get to the paint against an elite defensive team and when he gets there he doesn’t always make the correct decision because he is a freshman. My only Ayo criticism from the game, and he has to improve this skill for the NBA, is that against good teams he has trouble getting to the rim off the dribble in a half court set. Especially his left hand. I was disappointed in his ball handling last night.

Re: Curbelo, I could not agree more. He's making a lot of mistakes now but seems like a cerebral player that should improve dramatically as the year goes on. I was reassured by some of his play against Baylor, since a lot of freshmen look good over the first couple teams against bad competition but quickly fade when the quality ramps up -- based on an extremely small sample, he doesn't appear to be one of those freshmen.

As for Ayo, I don't want to appear to be ragging on him since I love everything he has been for us since he got here, but I continue to be skeptical of his NBA-level ability, particular at the PG spot. His speed is not as elite when measured up against the better backcourt players, which is the type of competition he'll see every night at the next level. His handle is decent but too high, and he doesn't have many moves outside of a so-so crossover and behind the back dribble -- he mainly relies on ability to blow by guys, and that ability shrinks as the competition gets better. He does a ton of stuff really well, don't get me wrong, but its his weaknesses that stand out when he plays against the type of competition he would see at the next level.

I alluded to it in another post but Ayo needs to be thinking and playing like more of a SG/CG, or even a wing. He's got great size and slashing ability, and is a decent shooter when given space. He is not good at setting the plate for an entire team and picking apart the entire defense imo, but is way better as the guy a PG passes to who then slices into the defense and looks for his shot or makes the simple pass to an open shooter. In other words, he's best as a secondary playmaker that is more score-first oriented (which also fits the closer role well too). That role should also make it easier to rely on his blow-by ability since defenses are not set up to stop you at the point of attack/top of the arc. Being realistic, that is his role, at best, in the NBA, and I think he'd be better off showing that he can excel in that role now rather than trying to prove he's a do-everything scoring PG that can run the whole show. As far as this season, he would have just as much opportunity to lay out his case for being an All-American and would still rack up stats, but the initiation of the offense would look a tad different.

Sorry for the dissertation.

Never apologize for the long-winded posts!!

 

[Homecoming 2019]

Re: Curbelo, I could not agree more. He's making a lot of mistakes now but seems like a cerebral player that should improve dramatically as the year goes on. I was reassured by some of his play against Baylor, since a lot of freshmen look good over the first couple teams against bad competition but quickly fade when the quality ramps up -- based on an extremely small sample, he doesn't appear to be one of those freshmen.

As for Ayo, I don't want to appear to be ragging on him since I love everything he has been for us since he got here, but I continue to be skeptical of his NBA-level ability, particular at the PG spot. His speed is not as elite when measured up against the better backcourt players, which is the type of competition he'll see every night at the next level. His handle is decent but too high, and he doesn't have many moves outside of a so-so crossover and behind the back dribble -- he mainly relies on ability to blow by guys, and that ability shrinks as the competition gets better. He does a ton of stuff really well, don't get me wrong, but its his weaknesses that stand out when he plays against the type of competition he would see at the next level.

I alluded to it in another post but Ayo needs to be thinking and playing like more of a SG/CG, or even a wing. He's got great size and slashing ability, and is a decent shooter when given space. He is not good at setting the plate for an entire team and picking apart the entire defense imo, but is way better as the guy a PG passes to who then slices into the defense and looks for his shot or makes the simple pass to an open shooter. In other words, he's best as a secondary playmaker that is more score-first oriented (which also fits the closer role well too). That role should also make it easier to rely on his blow-by ability since defenses are not set up to stop you at the point of attack/top of the arc. Being realistic, that is his role, at best, in the NBA, and I think he'd be better off showing that he can excel in that role now rather than trying to prove he's a do-everything scoring PG that can run the whole show. As far as this season, he would have just as much opportunity to lay out his case for being an All-American and would still rack up stats, but the initiation of the offense would look a tad different.



Never apologize for the long-winded posts!!

Ayo outplayed Jared Butler, another all-american contender, which is being lost in the discussion. It can be discussed who was better defensively, but by most metrics offensively, Ayo was better. And there really isn't a backcourt as tough as baylor's defensively in the B1G, that group is arguably tops in the nation.

 

[TheFameProtector]

Ayo outplayed Jared Butler, another all-american contender, which is being lost in the discussion. It can be discussed who was better defensively, but by most metrics offensively, Ayo was better.

I would disagree, though they both didn't have great games. A good chunk of Ayo's points came after Baylor blew the game wide open. I don't consider you to have outplayed somebody if you're outplaying them when the game is pretty much already decided and they had done things to help decide that game. Butler scored 10 points before half and assisted on another two, so responsible for over 1/3 of their offense. Ayo scored 7 of his points and had 2 of his assists when we were down 10+. Not to mention (only based on statistics) Butler was substantially better defensively. This isn't to say Butler is better than Ayo -- I would need to watch way more to assess that question -- but I don't think you can say Ayo outplayed Butler just based on their final stat lines.

 

[TheFameProtector]

And there really isn't a backcourt as tough as baylor's defensively in the B1G, that group is arguably tops in the nation.

Didn't see this part of the post, but I definitely agree with you there. My comment wasn't supposed to reference Ayo's ability at this level as much as the next. And I think that at the NBA level, Baylor's backcourt would be average defensively. Ayo is going to have to prove that he can handle elite defenses focused on stopping him, and that's why I think he'd be better off not playing the role of offense initiator, since he wouldn't be both the focal point of the defense by default AND by skill level (if that makes sense).