Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2018)

[ChiefGritty]

There's nothing wrong with getting depth players from the JUCO/Grad ranks. There's also nothing wrong with taking on project players, who might have excellent athleticism or motor or whatever, and hope some other skills develop.

The problem arises when the amount of players that fall into those categories rises from the bottom 4/5 on our bench, to half the team. We aren't quite there yet, but we inch closer everyday.

I agree with this, but at the same time we have some excellent talent in the backcourt that ought to be here for awhile. What's important is that we give them a complete, balanced roster to play with, and a JUCO big man and/or a transfer would make that a reality on the timeline we need.

Be upset about missing on some of the big recruits we went after, not the staff reacting to go after next-best options at a position of need. This is what they should be doing. Get the guys that will allow Tevian and Kipper to play in their natural positions and give the roster the length it needs to play BU's system. Trent and Ayo have the star thing covered.

 

[skyIdub]

Speaking about JUCO's, Austin Trice was runnerup in the dunk contest at Kansas State's Madness in Manhattan

 

[Obelix]

Speaking about JUCO's, Austin Trice was runnerup in the dunk contest at Kansas State's Madness in Manhattan

They may retire his number after such accomplishment.

 

[Deleted member 746094]

Speaking about JUCO's, Austin Trice was runnerup in the dunk contest at Kansas State's Madness in Manhattan

Definitely not a sure thing, but if this dude gets 14-16 minutes a game and puts up something like 4-5 pts, 5-6 rebounds and 1 block a game I wouldn’t be surprised. I am sure others will disagree but Trice should have been ours and we need a player like him desperately this year.

 

[Obelix]

...we need a player like [insert recruit's name] desperately this year.

FIFY.

 

[Joel Goodson]

Speaking about JUCO's, Austin Trice was runnerup in the dunk contest at Kansas State's Madness in Manhattan

Great athlete, not so great offensively (outside of 5'). In hindsight, would've been nice (because our frontcourt is thin). But we've had a decade of guys who have sub-par aspects to their game and good coaches know how to take advantage.

 

[ChiefGritty]

Definitely not a sure thing, but if this dude gets 14-16 minutes a game and puts up something like 4-5 pts, 5-6 rebounds and 1 block a game I wouldn’t be surprised. I am sure others will disagree but Trice should have been ours and we need a player like him desperately this year.

There's no way he'd beat out Empty Chair for minutes.

 

[drewillini89]

Maybe the staff should start doing Craigslist personal ads to fill remaining scholarships?

 

[TCTORNADO]

Definitely not a sure thing, but if this dude gets 14-16 minutes a game and puts up something like 4-5 pts, 5-6 rebounds and 1 block a game I wouldn’t be surprised. I am sure others will disagree but Trice should have been ours and we need a player like him desperately this year.

KState people believe he may be a better rebounder than all time leading rebounder, Ed Nealy.

 

[Obelix]

 

[sacraig]

I actually dont mind taking a flyer on Payton. Last year, he was on the radar for teams like Northwestern. Seems to have a good build, high jumper, solid speed, solid midrange jumper, and seems to be a smart player. Obviously, others such as Okoro are more talented, but he did hold his own a little last year. I like him better than players such as Giorgi as prospects, Mav, etc. On talent. Im not saying he is going to be as good, but as an athlete with long arms I think we coukd do a lot worse. Im a little hesitant over Underwoods overall recruiting to get that star consistently, but if we can keep Ayo, Frazier, develop Kane, Jones, Giorgi, Williams, and Griffin, we have a heck of a core. I think Payton slipped because of limited exposure to AAU ball, but I doubt there are 300 players better than Payton, and honestly, I would put him in the fringe top 150. A little underrated, a good athlete at the PF spot, and if he was 2 inches taller, would be a top 75 player IMO.

If "Northwestern showed interest at one point but no longer" is now acceptable evidence that a player is good enough to play at Illinois, then these are hard times indeed.

 

[sacraig]

View attachment 3670

Except I'm not doing it wrong. Occam's razor can be phrased several ways, but one is that the simplest answer that hasn't been eliminated by other evidence is likely the correct one. Well, the narrative that our staff collectively don't know how to recruit and close doesn't pass this test, because in involves several people apparently forgetting things they've show they can do in the past.

 

[Obelix]

Except I'm not doing it wrong. Occam's razor can be phrased several ways, but one is that the simplest answer that hasn't been eliminated by other evidence is likely the correct one. Well, the narrative that our staff collectively don't know how to recruit and close doesn't pass this test, because in involves several people apparently forgetting things they've show they can do in the past.

Except that Brad Underwood does not (and did not) have a reputation as a recruiter. There is no real evidence that he is a strong recruiter. Even Joe Henricksen talked about that when he was hired. Chin and Orlando do have such reputation and evidence but at the end of the day recruits know that they will play for the head coach. A lot of the groundwork in recruiting is usually done by assistants and Chin/Antigua have been doing a good job IMO generating initial interest and visits. The head coach carries more weight in closing. You may hit the occasional recruit where an assistant has very close personal ties with a recruit and his family, and certainly that was the case with Ayo, but that would not be enough in recruiting. Most of the times, the really good recruiting assistants have connections with AAU/HS coaches to generate an "IN" with recruits, but that is not enough to close. If we had not been able to generate initial interest, visits, etc. that would have been a different problem, but the problem is "closing" not targeting strategy.

The fact that we have not been able to do better in recruiting despite two assistants with strong recruiting reputations (especially Antigua) and strong AAU ties, is a serious concern. The worst thing IMO that can happen to us is losing someone like Antigua and his connections. If UI does not put it together soon (and there is still an opportunity for a recruiting turnaround), then we run the risk (again JMO) of some attrition at the assistant ranks. We need to turn it around soon though, because our biggest current asset (i.e., our talented backcourt) will not last forever.

 

[bombayIllini]

He was injured for half of the AAU season.

Injured.

Perfect fit for us

 

[OldSlowPG]

Does anyone on this board know if Shannon is still a possibility, or have we moved on?

 

[Deleted member 746094]

FIFY.

Touché. Well played sir!

 

[KrushCow31]

Does anyone on this board know if Shannon is still a possibility, or have we moved on?

Why wouldn't he be?

 

[Illinibatt]

Definitely not a sure thing, but if this dude gets 14-16 minutes a game and puts up something like 4-5 pts, 5-6 rebounds and 1 block a game I wouldn’t be surprised. I am sure others will disagree but Trice should have been ours and we need a player like him desperately this year.

Michael Finke would have easily done that this year. Probably Eboigbodin too.

 

[Deleted member 746094]

Does anyone on this board know if Shannon is still a possibility, or have we moved on?

I have literally zero information on this other than what has been said on here. It sounds like there is one of two things going on.

1) Someone has told him to hold off and bigger offers may come??

2) He literally hasn’t decided because, unfortunately, the family members are still pulling him in opposite directions. Can’t imagine being 17 years old, having the opportunity to live out one of your dreams in playing high major D1 ball, but it comes at the cost of disappointing one of the two people that should support his decision the most. So sad if this is the case.

If he calls and says he wants to be in Champaign then I expect there isn’t a question BU excepts his commitment without hesitation!

 

[Orange Line to Blue Line]

Michael Finke would have easily done that this year. Probably Eboigbodin too.

If Finke could do it, then why didn't he do it last season during Big Ten play?

 

[ChiefIllini]

If Finke could do it, then why didn't he do it last season during Big Ten play?

Well Finke averaged 7.8 PPG and 3.3 RPG, that's pretty close to what the other poster suggested he could've done this year. He also finished 4th in the B1G in 2pt shooting percentage and 6th in turnover percentage.

Finke was not a good defender or a perfect offensive threat, but his offensive rebounding and 3pt ability made him a player we could've used this year.

 

[sacraig]

Except that Brad Underwood does not (and did not) have a reputation as a recruiter. There is no real evidence that he is a strong recruiter. Even Joe Henricksen talked about that when he was hired. Chin and Orlando do have such reputation and evidence but at the end of the day recruits know that they will play for the head coach. A lot of the groundwork in recruiting is usually done by assistants and Chin/Antigua have been doing a good job IMO generating initial interest and visits. The head coach carries more weight in closing. You may hit the occasional recruit where an assistant has very close personal ties with a recruit and his family, and certainly that was the case with Ayo, but that would not be enough in recruiting. Most of the times, the really good recruiting assistants have connections with AAU/HS coaches to generate an "IN" with recruits, but that is not enough to close. If we had not been able to generate initial interest, visits, etc. that would have been a different problem, but the problem is "closing" not targeting strategy.

The fact that we have not been able to do better in recruiting despite two assistants with strong recruiting reputations (especially Antigua) and strong AAU ties, is a serious concern. The worst thing IMO that can happen to us is losing someone like Antigua and his connections. If UI does not put it together soon (and there is still an opportunity for a recruiting turnaround), then we run the risk (again JMO) of some attrition at the assistant ranks. We need to turn it around soon though, because our biggest current asset (i.e., our talented backcourt) will not last forever.

I never said that every staff member individually had a strong history of recruiting. I said the sum total of our staff has a history of recruiting at a high level. Certainly Antigua has been involved in closing on plenty of high-profile recruits. He didn't just forget how to do that. His experience should be paying off in that realm, and yet it isn't. Sure, the buck ultimately stops with the head coach, but do you really think that Antigua's experience in closing isn't taken into account by Underwood? Do you really think that Underwood is sitting there saying "Orlando, I know you have a long history of successful recruiting, but I am going to keep closing my way even though it hasn't been working?" That strains credulity.

This is why I am saying Occam's razor applies. In order to believe that this staff simply "can't close" means also believing that the staff is completely dysfunctional in that they don't learn from each other or from their experiences, and, in fact, may have even forgotten or ignored experiences they've had elsewhere when they did close on recruits. That is not a simple explanation and really makes no sense. Sure, Brad Underwood may not be a prolific closer, but I flat out don't believe that he can't and/or won't learn from the best practices that the rest of his staff bring from their previous experience in that realm.

I agree it is a serious concern, but I just don't agree, based on available evidence, that the answer is as simple is "this staff doesn't know how to close." I think there is more to the story that doesn't require the fairly far-fetched scenario above.

 

[sacraig]

Well Finke averaged 7.8 PPG and 3.3 RPG, that's pretty close to what the other poster suggested he could've done this year. He also finished 4th in the B1G in 2pt shooting percentage and 6th in turnover percentage.

Finke was not a good defender or a perfect offensive threat, but his offensive rebounding and 3pt ability made him a player we could've used this year.

Assuming, of course, that he still had that three-point ability. His shooting really fell off a cliff last season, particularly in conference play last year when he shot 22%. In fact, in his three years on the team, only one of them showed that three point ability. There really isn't enough information to decide if that one year was an outlier or his true ability.

Source:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/michael-finke-1.html#all_players_per_min_conf

 

[Illinibatt]

Would not be surprised to see Finke average double-double at GCU this coming year.

 

[ChiefGritty]

I never said that every staff member individually had a strong history of recruiting. I said the sum total of our staff has a history of recruiting at a high level. Certainly Antigua has been involved in closing on plenty of high-profile recruits. He didn't just forget how to do that. His experience should be paying off in that realm, and yet it isn't. Sure, the buck ultimately stops with the head coach, but do you really think that Antigua's experience in closing isn't taken into account by Underwood? Do you really think that Underwood is sitting there saying "Orlando, I know you have a long history of successful recruiting, but I am going to keep closing my way even though it hasn't been working?" That strains credulity.

This is why I am saying Occam's razor applies. In order to believe that this staff simply "can't close" means also believing that the staff is completely dysfunctional in that they don't learn from each other or from their experiences, and, in fact, may have even forgotten or ignored experiences they've had elsewhere when they did close on recruits. That is not a simple explanation and really makes no sense. Sure, Brad Underwood may not be a prolific closer, but I flat out don't believe that he can't and/or won't learn from the best practices that the rest of his staff bring from their previous experience in that realm.

I agree it is a serious concern, but I just don't agree, based on available evidence, that the answer is as simple is "this staff doesn't know how to close." I think there is more to the story that doesn't require the fairly far-fetched scenario above.

I don't love the way this always turns into dueling Glengarry Glen Ross monologues, but I think Obelix is right that closing is something only head coaches do.

And Underwood has closed on Mark Smith and Ayo Dosumnu in very competitive recruitments against big-time schools. He's capable of doing it.

I just wonder whether our strategy for his November deadline was sound. And how much our ability to make and execute a sound strategy was affected by needing to grind hard until July to fill out our previous class. That took up a lot of time and energy that other schools got to use on this class.

Add Chris Payton and a JUCO big man in the next couple weeks and avoid another exodus of transfers and we'll be on surer footing going forward.