It would be embarrassing if he didn't
Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (October 2018)
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It would be embarrassing if he didn't
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I think his decisive and most telling games will be against Utah Valley and California Baptist. He might be a little quicker this years without the hair.
Watching Finke defend was painful, it is like he is waring cement shoes. His gives up more points than he creates.
If he doesn't curbstomp every team he plays against, then we were super-right about him.
Again, Antigua's experience is paying off, as is Chin's, because we are getting a lot of talented recruits to show interest, make the short list, and visit. Assistants will not be able to close on their own, especially if the head coach is not a good recruiter and closer. That is a misconception. There is no evidence that Underwood is a good recruiter and closer, actually our recruiting failures point to the opposite. The HC is by far the biggest and most important factor (not even close), recruits know that they will be playing for the HC, not the assistant.
The number of cases that an assistant has a pre-existing personal relationship with a recruit and his family are few and far between (for the same assistant). Chin's relationship with Ayo's family and his parents is not typical. Chin has been extremely close to Ayo's parents for a long time, even before coming to UI. It is extremely hard to develop such relationships from scratch once you become an assistant as there are limitations on contact with recruits and their families, unless you are a relative, had known or worked with the parents before, etc. Chin's relationships will get you an "IN" with MIF and some other AAU coaches but it is not that Chin has the same relationship with all other MIF recruits. He simply doesn't, just knowing a recruit and his coach is not enough to close.
If the head coach is not a good recruiter and closer, you will lose most recruits no matter how good of a job an assistant does. Head coaches can learn, but not everything is a "tactic", a lot of it has to do with personality traits that are often more difficult to change. Whether BU becomes such closer remains to be seen but there is no evidence that he currently is.
IllFanInMi
I
Guest
I guess it’s a debate between being able to successfully recruit for other programs vs being able to replicate it at Illinois. Unfortunately my gut is telling me the problem lies in Illinois and the state of where it’s major sports programs have been. I’m sure not one of the staff expected it to be so difficult and are likely somewhat mystified.
Clear example that no matter how good of a recruiter you are, the product is likely the biggest factor.
Saying that, other programs with much less history and not much better recent success are getting it done, so who knows!
Clear example that no matter how good of a recruiter you are, the product is likely the biggest factor.
Saying that, other programs with much less history and not much better recent success are getting it done, so who knows!
Deleted member 746094
D
Guest
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I think his decisive and most telling games will be against Utah Valley and California Baptist. He might be a little quicker this years without the hair.
Being in Peoria over the years and attending Bradley games against mediocre competition many a nights; then watching Finke on TV against B10 teams I am not even sure he will standout at GCU. JMO, but he is soft and a huge liability on D because he has no lateral movement. Watching him dunk was comical as, at 6’10, he looked to struggle to throw down a one hand slam. Just don’t see him doing anything but eating minutes and standing on the 3-line in the desert. Would have rather seen Greg play until he fouled out than watch Finke prance around.
Maybe for Chin and Antigua, but Underwood had not be known for his recruiting success at his previous stops either. He has been known as a very good tactician with good game skills (so the question will be whether they transfer to UI) but not as a recruiter. When Joe Henricksen made that statement about question marks on BU's recruiting ability, he had not started coaching/recruiting at UI yet. I do not think anyone can look at the current situation at UI and say with a straight face that Underwood has been a good recruiter.
Underwood needs to pick it up recruiting-wise, certainly some patterns (e.g., Fall recruiting misses) seem to be repeating. That is the concern IMO. I personally have no doubt that IF Underwood does get the talent, he will be very successful at UI.
BananaShampoo
Captain 'Paign
- Phoenix, AZ
I would hope so given the level of competition he'll mostly be facing.
Very good write up and explanation. I guess the HOPES from most of us optimists here on the board is that he doesn't need the flashy 5star/ high 4 star prospects on a regular basis (2 or more every class). Maybe just snagging a good one here and there to compliment some gritty/scrapper types. Get us back to being a 20-25 game winner on a consistent basis. He can accomplish that with players outside the top 100 but itll take some very good scouting and pieces that fit. I think of teams like Witchita State and early years of Gonzaga. I realize that they are in weaker conferences but it's not impossible to do. You fellas are right though, we need someone on board soon!
Just to be clear, that is not what I have said. Closing is not something that only head coaches do, but head coaches are by far the most critical and influential factor in closing. There have been cases (e.g., Ayo) that a pre-existing relationship with player and his parents seems to be as critical or more in closing (as they have been family relationships, e.g., Porter, or recent player/coach relationships of new assistants, e.g., Heirman). But it is extremely difficult to build consistent recruiting based on those cases (for the same assistant).
These are very absolute statements for a situation where there are very rarely any absolutes.
I believe he has the single worst defensive instincts of any Illini player I've watched over the last 50 years.
I think to become a consistent winner in the B1G is a little more difficult and will definitely take some talent than just lower ranked recruits who you hope will pan out based on just scouting. You will not be able to consistently get 5* players, but you need to sprinkle 5*/high 4* recruits in your classes and most importantly get some talent without positional gaps. Current backcourt is the model, extend that to frontcourt.
Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
Good? I can't say that, however, Mark Smith, Ayo Dosumnu and Tevian Jones are exciting talents that other high majors wanted. Let's see how this group plays together. If the whole is greater than the sum of its parts (which we have not seen since 2009), then he may be on to something here. I would love to lock up a top 100 player this Fall and another in the Spring. That has been his MO, during his short stay at this fine university. I realize that the top 100 recruit in the Fall is not looking promising at this point, but am still looking forward to the season.
I think in most years, if you grab a top 30, a top 100, and a top 200 player, you're doing alright. As much as I would've liked to have seen the staff close most of the guys in the fall, they obviously got talent. Add to that the top JUCO PG, that is a solid class. You do that year in and year out and you have a NCAAT team.
I do not think anyone is saying the opposite, certainly not me. Just because recruiting is not going well that does not mean that people are not looking forward to the season. I always look forward to the start of the season for 35+ years, good or bad. Even if Fall recruiting was going great, it would have no influence on the current season anyway (other than some minor indirect influence).
What recruiting does influence is the ability to consistently compete in future seasons, create more enjoyment and wins in future seasons (not just the excitement of season starting), and create more sustainable momentum and financial benefits for the UI program.
I agree. Even the guys we need to get it done will be 3/4 star players other p5s are after. Jones was one that fits the mold I'm talking about. Only time will tell if players like him and Griffin can become solid B10 players. Ray Rice is another that comes to mind. Plenty of good players out there under the radar. We just need to find a few of em. I hope the team looks competent and competitive from tip to buzzer and finishes up on the bubble I'll be happy but that will even be tough without an inside presence on D. I really do believe a lot of the turnover was players that played for Groce then played for Underwood and said " !#*! off" and a few of the newcomers jumped on board. A giant culture change that has left us with a giant hole he couldn't fill in 1 year. If this years team is more competitive than last years there is quite a bit of hope regardless of this falls recruiting IMO.
Who beat him Weber
A few comments. Much of the turnover was also created by Underwood's own recruits, pretty much his entire class. Ray Rice is IMO one of the most underappreciated Illini players ever, but when we recruited him he was a transfer and more of a known commodity. Finally, you can't have positional gaps. Much of what people bring as examples are backcourt. There is nothing wrong with the backcourt, and obviously much is made of it because of Ayo, a highly ranked recruit, who does not fit much of the lower recruiting expectations/targets that people suggest. What we need to do is extend our current backcourt talent level to frontcourt. But it has to happen soon because our backcourt will not last forever. Consistency is recruiting is key, as is Fall recruiting.
Yes, and fellow coaches will usually say very positive things when a coach is hired. It is a closed fraternity. Some analysts would be slightly more critical, I was surprised actually when Henricksen made that comment. Coaches will never say bad things even when a fellow coach fails, but analysts and media will turn against you, especially Chicago.
As I have said many times before, I have absolutely no concern with Underwood's coaching system. I like his style of play. IF he gets the talent, he can be a very good coach for many years at UI. But I have concerns with recruiting and current status will not result in consistent success. He can surely hit the right chemistry here and there (as Groce did in 2012-13) but overall recruiting has to be fixed soon to have consistent success.
I hope he does, but I would be really surprised.
I don't know. Mark Smith was certainly right at the top, and Kipper and Black were pretty poor last year, a well. Granted, the two latter players were guarding a position that wasn't normal for them, but they should have been able to at least keep guys in front of them.
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
Seriously, is there a "B" side to this record? You have made this exact same point in at least 8+ posts.
We got it.
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